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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    It's almost if millennia of biology giving rise to male aggression isn't countered by a few months of saying you're a woman.

    Horrific that quote.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    So brave, we should celebrate the bravery. Disgusting that this was allowed at any point



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭plodder


    CNN making fools of themselves over that NAIA decision

    Advocates of banning transgender women from women’s sports
    have argued that transgender women have a physical advantage over
    cisgender women in sports.

    But mainstream science does not support that conclusion. A
    2017 report in the journal Sports Medicine that reviewed several related
    studies found “no direct or consistent research” on trans people having
    an athletic advantage over their cisgender peers, and critics say the
    bans add to the discrimination trans people face.

    Debate in the scientific community about whether androgenic
    hormones like testosterone serve as useful markers of athletic advantage
    remains ongoing
    .

    Even the NCAA accepts that testosterone gives trans women an advantage. Otherwise, they would not have rules on T suppression for trans women.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/08/sport/naia-bans-trans-athletes-dawn-staley-reaj/index.html

    I don't think the NCAA will change anything off their own bat. The curious statement they released makes it sound like they want guidance from the US government, or the courts first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,149 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Another example of CNN being an absolute joke. Its pure ideological crap and gaslighting to state there's no evidence that testosterone gives athletic advantage. If there the case then why is it considered a performance enhancing drug and it's usage banned then?

    I had a quick look at the reddit thread in r/news and even the posters there agree with the decision and acknowledge the advantages trans women have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    Even if testosterone on its own had no effect (it very much does!) it's the physical attributes that it enhances during male puberty that won't go away.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    This is the report CNN quoted link

    Conclusion

    Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

    The word currently is quite important in the conclusion really isnt it, especially if CNN want to quote a 7 year old review. Since then the landscape has totally transformed everywhere except the ideologues heads.

    Sports ireland released the studies they used including 2 more up to date reviews.

    https://www.sportireland.ie/transgenderguidance under references

    sorry link wouldnt save



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    The advantage question disappears into thin air when you consider the following fact:

    • Lia Thomas went from 554th in the men's division, but post-transition, jumped into the top 5 ranking in the women's division.
    • We never ever see a biological female in 500th position in the women's division of their sport, then post-transition, jump into the top 5 ranking in the men's division.

    It only ever goes one way.

    That's because of the inherent and axiomatic advantage.

    Debates over advantage is a red herring because we already have real-world data such as the above, not that it was needed to begin with. Not deep philosophical debates, but actual hard evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    I was very struck by the cyclist Emily Bridges who refused to compete in an “open” category in cycling.

    No they have to race against biological women cyclists only! Why ??

    Cheating!! Same as Thomas and others. It’s not about rights, it’s not about competing - it’s about mediocre athletes wanting an advantage.

    It’s Lance Armstrong but with ideologues supporting you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    If Bridges refuses to compete, that's their decision.

    I have no sympathy for athletes that want to secure any kind of unfair advantage.

    Repackaging unfair advantage under the term "inclusion" is embarrassing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Enduro


    This just popped into one of my sports feeds this morning…

    https://marathonhandbook.com/aayden-gallacher-oregon-state-championship/

    Whilst I don't think it's fair to the athlete, who is competing as the rules allow, it shows how these rules, which allow male sex athletes to compete in the female category, are very unpopular in reality (as well as being fundamentally unfair, IMO).

    Everybody is ending up worse off under these rules.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭Gamergurll




  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    More women have decided enough is enough with this nonsense. It seems we're at a turning point.

    We recently had the case of Deta Hedman in darts, too:

    British female darts player Deta Hedman refused to play against a transgender competitor in the Denmark Open over the weekend and removed herself from the competition.

    Hedman was set to face Noa-Lynn van Leuven in the quarterfinals of the tournament but opted not to play instead and forfeited.

    She added, “This subject causing much angst in the sport I love . People can be whoever they want in life but I don’t think biological born men should compete in Women’s sport.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Once the conversation moves from theoretical to practical it's going to become more and more obvious that male advantage is actually an advantage.

    This will be uncomfortable for many but it didn't have to be this way. The science behind this is very basic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    It goes towards what a lot have been saying in here, that those who support this kind of nonsense of letting males compete against females and lobbying it as "fair" are pretty much on a faith based foundation. They will use every and any excuse that this should be allowed over some rubbish to do with human rights…it is pathetic and evil.

    The sooner that some common sense kicks in, along with just understanding that it is scientific fact, the better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Anyone who believes that biological males should compete against women is an ideological extremist.

    We then have said extremists calling anyone who calls out their extremism as bigoted and prejudiced.

    That gaslighting and manipulation is extraordinary — and absolutely disgusting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Is this the same event or another one? It came up in my feed this morning, but I can't be certain it's not the same race, as the camera angle is different.

    Title IX is in the process of effectively being rescinded by the Biden administration by allowing male students who declare themselves to be female to participate in female sports on the grounds of anti LGTQ+ discrimination. They haven't yet released the separate set of rules dealing with transgender athletes’ participation in sports, but if the rules are as currently proposed, that will be the result, so that is how schools and universities are being advised to proceed in the run-up to the final publication.

    The revised regulations for Title IX, the law outlawing sex discrimination at federally funded schools, expand the definition of sex-based discrimination and harassment to explicitly prohibit discrimination based on sex stereotypes, pregnancy or related conditions, sexual orientation, gender identity, and sex characteristics.

    The U.S. Department of Education already interprets Title IX to include protection against discrimination based on gender identity and sexuality … But the new rules make that explicit under Title IX without room for interpretation otherwise. The department released a resource for schools as they work to draft policies that align with the new rules. In it, the department states that schools must adopt, publish, and implement a “nondiscrimination policy.”

    https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/new-title-ix-rule-has-explicit-ban-on-discrimination-of-lgbtq-students/2024/04



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    It's absolutely outrageous to amend Title IX to increase discrimination against women in sports.

    Because that's what it amounts to; appealing to some biological males at the expense of women.

    The Biden Administration has been radicalised by this extreme ideology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The disaster in the US is that the issue has been allowed to be hijacked by their ideological warfare, so that leftwing (well, Democrat-voting) women like Martina Navratilova can't be too outspoken while remaining a Democrat.

    It has also meant that a rightwing nut like Ted Cruz has ended up speaking up for female prisoners' rights against a female judge who is apparently happy to sacrifice them.

    It's crazy. I can only justify it as an example of a stopped clock being right twice a day.

    In the UK things are looking rather better, with for instance Labour people such as Wes Streeting at last admitting that they have got this wrong:

    I think if we allow this to be seen as a right/left opposition, women will lose out. Because the truth is that neither the right nor the left actually care about women - they just use women's issues in different ways, but always subservient to the interests of men in the party.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    It's not a left-right issue. It's a right or wrong issue.

    And most people in the country are opposed to biological males competing against women.

    In the US:

    Nearly 70% of U.S. adults say transgender athletes should be allowed to compete only on sports teams that correspond with the sexes they were assigned at birth, Gallup found.

    In the UK:

    The public are strongly opposed to trans women athletes participating in women’s sporting events, by 61% versus just 16% who are supportive.

    Only 16% in support of the measure.

    We cannot push through discriminatory measures against women on the basis that some biological males are angry about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Enduro


    It's a different event (different stadium, different winning margin), but quite possibly the same athlete (I can't tell from the footage one way or the other). The video I referenced was the Oregon State Championship, so very likely to be influential for college scholarships. Of course, Oregon is a "blue" state, which makes the public booing even more telling. This can't be put down as just some kind of MAGA/republican political reaction.

    Title IX is where this issue becomes deadly serious and life-changing, without doubt. Like it or not, the reality is that sports scholarships are often the only realistic chance for some people to be able to afford a college education in the USA. So to have male sex athletes take from the (limited, finite) pool of female scholarships will more than likely have a life-altering negative effect on the female sex athlete who misses out on a scholarship they would otherwise have attained.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Indeed. Even a single biological male who takes a woman's spot on the podium has affected not just that woman but all those below her who are pushed further from potential success.

    But another problem is the notion that only elite sports like those leading to scholarships matter, and that it's fine in lower-level sports for women and girls to be pushed out by mediocre males. It's not. Women only get to elite level by climbing the rungs from those lower levels, so if they are discouraged by knowing they can never win against a male competitor, they're more likely to drop out altogether and never make it to elite level in the first place.

    (I know this is not what you're saying, but it's frequent among those who love to take the "both sides are as bad as each other" moral-superiority stance, so I wanted to point out why it's not a compromise at all.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    I agree, there is absolutely no compromise.

    Either you have "women's sport" or you do not.

    People who argue that women's sport should not exist unless biological males are included, are — by sheer definition — misogynistic. It's to argue that women are somehow lesser than men; that they should never qualify to have their own category unless biological males are included.

    How utterly repellent is that argument.

    What I'm alarmed by is that 15-20% of the population think that belief is acceptable to foist upon everyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I could not agree with you more. Indeed I have made the very same point myself many times in this thread when some user (usually with absolutely no understanding of sports) comes in and says that because a transwoman doesn't win every event they enter then all is OK. As we agree, that's complete nonsense. It's actually elitist nonsense, often perpetuated by people who probably think that they are anti-elitist.

    In sports, every single person, no matter the level at which level they compete, should be entitled to fair treatment under the rules.

    Sports are a zero-sum game. Every result which is attained unfairly pushes down everyone behind them in the results. If a male sex athlete were to come last an Olympic final they would have deprived a female sex athlete of the opportunity to compete in the final, and deprived another female sex athlete of a chance to compete in the Olympics, and deprived another female sex athlete of a chance to compete in the Olympic qualifying event, and so on and on. A long chain of unfairness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Enduro


    What I'm alarmed by is that 15-20% of the population think that belief is acceptable to foist upon everyone else.

    I know where you're coming from there. Any opinion polls I've seen (which are mostly online polls, so aren't that useful really) are generally more than 95% against allowing transwomen to compete in the female category. I think the likely explanation is that it is explained by the population being polled. A poll of people with a big interest and understanding of sports in general is likely to poll more strongly against allowing transwomen to compete in the female category than a poll of the general population (Because their desire to be inclusive and kind will not be offset by an understanding of how the unfairness to female sex athletes deeply undermines the whole ethos of fair sporting competition)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    In my experience, a massive proportion of the population still don't understand many fundamental aspects of the question. Many for instance imagine that a "trans woman" will have had - or be preparing to have - genital surgery. They generally assume that these are same sex attracted males who wish to become the "woman" in a relationship with a man. In other words they have no idea that many so-called trans women have male genitalia, continue to have "straight" sex with women - and have no intention of changing any of that.

    Also in my experience, as women, in particular, learn how naive their vision was, they are often quite shocked. That's why it's so important to talk about it (and why Stonewall's "No Debate" tactic was so clever).



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