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Football ranking table

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,366 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    Just to acknowledge the efforts of laoisman11, always interesting ratings and plenty more accurate than many of the other top 10 and ranking tables that are often listed in the normal media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,519 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    "Dishonorable mentions to Cork, Armagh, Antrim and Carlow who all lost more than 3 rating points"

    Armagh lost one game by a point, their problem was that their high starting position meant that their victories yielded nothing whatever the margin was. If Monaghan have a similar championship performance to last year, they may well get promoted next year from Div 2 while actually losing rating points.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    It was the draws with Cork and Donegal and the loss to Donegal in the league final that resulted in Armagh losing more than they gained in Division 2. And yes, they started out a lot higher than the other teams.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    It feels like we've jumped straight into the middle of the championship, with no fewer than 9 games kicking off this weekend.

    The full prediction output is attached (minus the NY vs Mayo game because any games involving New York always throw up errors in creating tables, due to the few games they have played).

    Two games that deserve attention:

    • Meath have been on a downward trend the last few games, whereas Longford have been looking good, apart from the final game against Wexford. Given the big beating that they took against Meath recently in the championship, there might be a shock on the cards here
    • Forever the underdogs, Waterford do not ever seem to fear Tipperary in either league or championship. Could be a lot closer than 4 points.

    Post edited by laoisman11 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,731 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nine games, Monaghan v Cavan. And if Home/Away is of any consequence to predictions, the Westmeath Wicklow game is in Portlaoise.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Thanks! It was in the PDF but didn't come out in the table; updated now!



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Some nice shocks to get the championship started!

    • Cavan's bonus point win over Monaghan sees them gain a massive 6.9 rating points, and they climb 5 places in the rankings; Monaghan, meanwhile, drop 5 places to 16th, their lowest rank since April 2013
    • Wicklow took many by surprise by overcoming Westmeath - the teams exchange 6 rating points
    • Waterford's surprise win over Tipp gains them 4.2 rating points, but it's not enough to lift them off the bottom of the table; Tipp fall to 31st, their lowest since April 2007
    • Sligo's win over Leitrim brings them to 17th, their highest since March 2016
    • Carlow's poor year continues with a big loss to Wexford, costing them 1.2 rating points



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Six games up this weekend, some insights from the in-depth prediction model:

    • Antrim's recent form has been quite poor and they haven't done so well versus Down recently
    • Both Kildare and Wicklow's recent results don't make for pretty reading and Kildare often have difficulty against the Garden county
    • Wexford's recent form is interesting, and they might give Louth a good rattle
    • Fermanagh's form has been very erratic, despite some good, albeit, losing performances in Division 2

    Full prediction model output attached (and I've noticed that the details in the Fixtures column of section 5 of each game is quite often gibberish or completely wrong - I will remove it next week and hopefully get some time to tidy it up at a later date) and a summary below



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Only 1 major shock this weekend, with Laois losing out heavily at home to Offaly who were lower rated; Laois and Offaly exchange 6.5 rating points and swap ranking places 20-25



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,519 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Cork are better than Meath and not as good as Galway, their position isn't too far away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output attached, and predictions below.

    • 14, 13 and 24 were the winning margins for Galway in their last 3 meetings with Sligo, difficult to see much changing this weekend
    • Waterford seem to alternate between good and poor performances versus Clare, and this year is due to be a poor one
    • There is a huge rating difference between Kerry and Cork, and home advantage tells the model that the winning margin will be significant
    • Both Derry and Donegal are coming into this meeting with good form, with the 6 previous games between the sides going more or less as predicted. But with new management on both sidelines, could this year be different?
    • Just 3 wins for Roscommon over Mayo in their previous 20 match-ups, and the defeats have occassionally been harrowing (2009, 2017)
    • Hard to understand the form of Cavan and Tyrone - apart from the big losses to Armagh and Fermanagh, Cavan had a very solid Div 2, whereas Tyrone, with the exception of the Dublin mauling, had a reasonably solid Div 1 campaign. Cavan haven't beaten Tyrone in the championship in more than 30 years….but this year could be tight

    Post edited by laoisman11 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    All the shocks were up north this last weekend…….

    • Donegal's huge win over Derry was a turn up for the books, with Donegal gaining 8.2 rating points; Derry drop a massive 4 places to 6th
    • Tyrone's extra-time win over Cavan helps propel them up to 5th in the rankings
    • Mayo and Galway made minor gains, and no rating points were exchanged in the 2 Munster games



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭crusd


    The model is great work and I feel it does arrive at the right result come year end, however mid season it does result in a few quirks. The benefit Donegal got from the result against Derry is disproportionate. There is no way one result means they have now shown that they are the third team in the country and similarly Derry have shown enough on a more extended time period to be higher than sixth. Roscommon and Cork swapping places is also as bit of a strange one. I understand its due to the relative rankings differences but you essentially had 3 beat 10 and 4 beat 9 by similar margins, so nothing to suggest a relative change, yet Roscommon were actually penalised for having been ranked higher, and therefore having the better long term form, before the game. I don't think there is much between those two teams, but Cork have definitely not done enough to warrant overtaking Roscommon as yet.

    Also, Monaghan down to 17th. A tough draw in the round robin could see them get a Dublin, Galway/ Mayo and Derry and there would be no shame in losing all 3, yet there would remain on the same points, yet team below them in the Tailteann could over take them by virtue of winning against poor sides.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    I agree fully that mid-season, there can be some outliers in terms of how teams move around but at the end of the year, things generally average out (although occasionally there can be exceptions and I try to highlight those).

    Where it is a bit more nuanced though, is that it is a rating point-based system but for simplicity of explanation, a ranking based system is what people see/expect to see.

    So for the Roscommon/Cork example above, it was more than 3rd beating 10th, and 4th beating 9th, it was 104.4 at home, so 107.4 beating 90.1, and 98.5 beating 93.2 (90.2+3). And there are vastly different rewards for beating a team close to you (5.3 rating points difference between Mayo and Roscommon) vs when there is a big gap (17.3 for Kerry-Cork).

    In general, 2 teams that are within 2 or 3 rating points of each other generally have very little between them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output attached for this weekend's games:

    • Little to extract from the form or previous history of Armagh nor Down, the superior rating position of Armagh should swing it for them
    • Offaly have somehow managed to avoid Dublin since 2007 in the championship (I must look up how long it has been since Dublin have met other teams, notably in Leinster where they have been so succesful); Offaly's last victory was 1982
    • Kildare's recent form has been cack, whereas Louth seem to be on a roll; notably, Louth have beaten Kildare in their last 2 (league) outings
    • While Donegal's victory over Derry is the standount in their recent performances, they have excceded expectations by an average of 3 points this year



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    I'm off on holidays for the next 10 days, so I will combine 2 week's updates after the weekend of May 5th. In the meantime, prediction model output attached for the Munster and Connacht finals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Ranking table updated following the last 2 weekend's rounds of games:

    • Donegal now sit in 2nd place, which is a mind-boggling compared to where they started 2024, back in 13th place
    • Galway's narrow win results in them jumping 4 places in the ranking, dropping Mayo to 5th
    • Louth and Armagh also made small rating point gains following victories over Kildare and Down, respectively



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Getting this week's predictions in early……

    • Two first time championship meetings (since 1925 at least!) to look forward to (Sligo vs Wexford; Down vs Limerick)
    • KIldare's form is abysmal, but they are sitting almost 15 rating points higher than Longford
    • Both Sligo and Wexford are on very good runs of form but home advantage should swing it Sligo's way
    • There isn't much between Fermanagh and Wicklow in terms of rating points, and Wicklow have performed excellently in their last 2 games - a potential shock on the cards here?
    • Down to beat Limerick well; Leitrim to take care of Waterford; Offaly to beat London and Antrim to give Tipp a tipping
    • Laois and Carlow's form have been highly erratic, but Laois have not lost to Carlow in either league or championship since 1988
    • Not much to be said for Dublin vs Louth, just hoping that Louth can keep it tighter this
    • Armagh have underperformed in 3 of their last 4 games, whereas Donegal's have equalled or outperformed in their last 8 games. What a return it would be for McGuinness if Donegal could pull this off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,519 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Offaly v London prediction didn't quite work out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    London's 11 years without a championship win, and having won a single league game in the last 2 years somehow caused the model to doubt them….



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,731 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    They drew with Loais in the Tailteann last year. But lost to Offaly by 9, also in Tullamore. Laois drew with Offaly. Funny old game. In the Pools thread Laoisman11 went for Offaly by 17, higher than anyone else I think. This is not a criticism. If he is in Laois he might be able to find out is there something rotten in the Kingdom of Offaly.

    London were this close to progressing out of their group in 2023, game played in Dublin. Maybe they concentrate more on the Tailteann than Divison 4?

    Tailteann Cup Group One Laois 1-17 London 2-14

    By Alan Hartnett at Parnell Park.

    Former League of Ireland goalkeeper Niall Corbet was Laois' hero as his late point saved them from Tailteann Cup elimination and stopped London from pulling off an almighty shock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    To be honest, I don't have any special insight into what happened but it was a huge shock. I was expecting Offaly to bounce back well after the Dublin game and they had beaten Laois well. Laois's result against Carlow shows how over rated Laois were…and in hindsight, Offaly had some very poor results for the first few years of the Qualifiers.

    London will get the maximum rating points for it, that's for certain. I will try to put those up later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Ranking table update after this weekend's excitement…

    • The huge winners are London, following a demolition of Offaly in O'Connor Park. Not many teams have managed to gain 9 rating points from one match, but few have done it so convincingly
    • (London's win drops Tipperary to 32nd, their lowest ever ranking)
    • Donegal won't be dismayed that they lost 1.8 rating points in drawing with Armagh - the Ulster title is ample reward for an amazing season to date
    • Fermanagh, Sligo, Carlow and Leitrim also picked up rating points, but the rating difference was too large in the remaining 4 games for the favourites to increase their worth



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 utility man


    Why is there no rating change for Kildare after a 26 point win. Fermanagh received 2.5 by beating Wicklow by much less and a not dissimilar ranking difference. BTW I really enjoy your table..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Looking at the previous table, Kildare were close to 14.3 ranking points ahead of Longford (and at home). Fermanagh were only 3.6 points ahead of Wicklow. Kildare's home advantage most likely pushed them above the threshold, above which any Kildare victory would not have had any impact on their or Longford's points totals. Fermanagh's home advantage wouldn't have pushed them above that threshold so their big victory had an impact on their points.



  • Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    No more than 12 games up for decision this weekend!

    Some first time championship meetings (Waterford vs Kildare; Carlow vs Fermanagh) and a few 2nd ever championship meetings (Wexford vs Antrim; Tipp vs Sligo; London vs Down; Longford vs Leitrim) bringing a lot of novelty…

    • Four from four for Galway in their previous championship games with Derry, and apart from this year's league game, Galway have won the previous 7 meetings between the sides
    • Mayo have been slightly below form this year, whereas Cavan's form is erratic
    • Clare always seem to get on well versus Cork, it would be no surprise if this was tight
    • Both Kerry and Monaghan have poor form over most of their games in 2024 but Kerry's superior rating should bring them through safely
    • A big win for Kildare vs Waterford (if they have rediscovered their mojo!)
    • Wexford to bounce back from 2 poor defeats and avenge last year's loss to Antrim
    • Sligo to take care of an out-of-form Tipp side
    • Limerick have been doing ok lately; hard to know how Offaly will react to last weekend's meltdown, they performed 25 points less than expected vs London (which is why the dot does not show on the graph!)
    • Hard to see London overcome the huge rating gap between themselves and Down
    • Both Carlow and Fermanagh have been hugely erratic, this could be a 10-point win for either!
    • History shows that Longford-Leitrim games are tight, relatively low-scoring affairs
    • Hoping Laois can continue their form of 2 poor results, followed by 2 good results….but Wicklow have home advantage, which will probably swing it their way



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