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Football ranking table

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  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Plenty of changes after the bumper weekend:

    • Wicklow were the big, big winners, gaining the maximum 9 rating points for their bonus point win over Limerick - but it wasn't enough to avoid elimination from the Tailteann Cup
    • Five rating points were obtained by Antrim following an excellent bonus point win over Fermanagh
    • Carlow took 4 rating points with a surprising win over Longford
    • Tyrone, Meath and London all picked up 3 or more rating points





  • Registered Users Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    Armagh big losers 😩



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Only 4 games on the cards this weekend, and the prediction model is going for 4 home wins (see table below).

    Deeper analyses shows that if a shock is to be had, then Offaly are vulnerable, performing poorly in 6 of their last 7 games, whereas Wexford have overperformed in 2 of their last 3 games.

    (For some reason, my code does not like New York, or more likely, the fact that New York has not previously played against other teams. I've left the Carlow-NY game out of the PDF output)





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    The Wexford shock was on the cards, but not the Laois shock........As a result, Fermanagh drop to their lowest level since March 2013.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Fermanagh have an unusually low position given that they were promoted to Div 2 in the league.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Two losses at home to teams below them in the table at the time (Antrim and Laois) lost them nearly 10 points in the ranking table. Their draw against Wexford also lost them points and I'd doubt their win over Leitrim would have gained them much. Their entire league campaign only gained them 5.2 points.



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    The last big weekend of games, with 12 games lined up.

    • Monaghan have performed 5-8 points better than expected against Donegal in their 3 previous games; whether that is a reflection of Donegal's recent demise, or some advantage that Monaghan hold, remains to be seen
    • A first-ever meeting for Laois and Limerick in the championship, 2 teams whose form varies wildly
    • Cavan look like they will continue their good run of form, and could run up a big score against Down
    • Both Antrim and Carlow have been performing well in this championship, but Antrim's superior rating should indicate that they are better placed to win
    • Kerry have underperformed in their last 2 games; I would expect a backlash against Louth (interesting to see that Louth hold the upper hand against Kerry over league and championship: played 7, won 4, lost 3)
    • Westmeath managed to keep it tight against Armagh and Galway, can do they the same against Tyrone?
    • Detailed prediction output attached; full table below





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    What a weekend of shocks! Six of 12 results were different to what the prediction model went for, and the experts in the SFC pools thread didn't do so much better either!

    • The major news is that due to Galway's loss and dropping 4.9 rating points to Armagh, Derry now find themselves in the number one ranking position for the first time since June 2000; Armagh climb an incredible 6 places in a highly congested top-of-table
    • In terms of rating points gain, Cork were the biggest winers, gaining 5.7 rating points from Mayo
    • Kildare took 5.4 rating points from Roscommon, while Donegal and Down increased their worth by 4.9 and 4.8 rating points, respectively

    Teams appear to be clustering into 2 major groups, the top 6 who are around 100 rating points (and I'm including Mayo in that) and a 2nd group of 6 teams around the 92 rating point mark. Hard to know if any team from the 2nd group could seriously challenge for Sam, but it wouldn't be a surprise to see them take a major scalp. In any case, this is one of the most open championships for many years




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    There isn't much between the top group of teams. Armagh's presence there might seem anomalous, but recently they have beaten Galway and drawn with Derry both of whom have been at the top of the table lately.

    On the ranking the four quarter finals are 1-4 and the 8 teams in the preliminary QFs are 5-12, so it does reflect where pretty well where teams are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    Again @laoisman11, sterling work, I enjoy this thread except when you drop the Rossies down.

    There are a few 'experts' doing things like power ranks and lists in different media, I hope noone is copying your homework so to speak.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    So the prediction model will go for Cork,Galway,Tyrone,Monaghan to win this weekend?



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Almost!

    • Donegal's recent upturn in form pushes them into a strong position against Tyrone, who have performed more or less as expected (Westmeath game excluded); home advantage might swing it for them
    • Cork have also been performing above average, but Roscommon historically perform well against them
    • Both Galway and Mayo have been on a downward trend these last few games and given previous results, this will be a tight, low-scoring game
    • Roscommon and Monaghan are pretty erratic; the prediction model is calling a drawn game
    • Meath and Antrim are coming into their semi-final with 4 good wins under their belts and look pretty evenly matched
    • There are 10 rating points difference between Down and Laois, and that is by far the largest spread across the 6 games this weekend; Laois have rode their luck in their last 2 games, and I can only see Down maintaining their 100% record against Laois





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Four extremely tight games the weekend gone by, and the less said about the one that wasn't at all tight, the better 😫

    Nothing between the top 6 teams at this stage, and Monaghan and Cork are not too far behind.

    Nothing either between the Tailteann Cup finalists, some good games to look forward to, starting this weekend!




  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Four pretty close games to be looked forward to this weekend, if the prediction model has it right.

    A deeper look at past trends shows that:

    • Monaghan have made life difficult for Armagh over their last 3 meetings
    • It's 4 wins apiece for Kerry and Tyrone following previous championship meetings, and 12 wins apiece from league games. And Kerry have lost 4 of their last 5 meetings with Tyrone
    • Dublin have run up big scores against weak opposition but not when faced with more serious challenges; Mayo will bring a serious challenge and hope to extend their 2-game winning streak against the Dubs
    • Derry's form has slipped significantly since the early rounds in Ulster, while Cork seem a team on the up, with the odd hiccup (Louth, Clare). Revenge for '93?





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Update after the All-Ireland quarter-finals - Kerry regain number 1 spot, but Dublin are breathing down their necks in second. Derry sit just behind in 3rd, whilst Monaghan sit a further 8 points back.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    I note that Tyrone were -4.9, if Kerry beat Derry by more than 5 points will they drop below Armagh?



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Should be somewhere around that magnitude, I'd expect



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    • Down are coming off 2 big wins where they greatly exceeded expectations, and that seems to be a reflection of their style of play - if they get on top, they really get on top. Meath performed well against them in the group game, but at that stage, Down had already qualified. Perhaps the model is looking too much at history, but it's hard to see Meath win this
    • With only 2 losses in their last 20 games, and highly convincing results in their last 3 games, Dublin seem to be peaking at the right time. However, a closer look at games between these 2 teams shows that Monaghan have overperformed against Dublin in 7 of their last 8 games, stretching back to 2015. Monaghan have also beaten Dublin 3 times in that period, and I'm not sure if any other team has had that much success. The model is still going for a Dublin win but it could be tighter than most think
    • The main difference between Kerry and Derry is consistency of performance - Kerry's form fluctated wildly between the loss to Mayo and the win over Louth, whereas Derry keep things more consistent. Kerry have also underperformed in their last 7 games against Derry, although these games date from 2008 to 2015, the date of their last previous (NFL) meeting





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    And then there were 2! Dublin and Kerry got the job done, more or less as predicted, while Meath pulled off a great win in the Tailteann Cup.





  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    The last prediction of the year........

    • There is huge similarity in the recent form of both teams, both performing above expectations in their respective provincial championships, before minor hiccups in the early stages of the group stage, and finishing with exceeding performances in their final games and All-Ireland quarter-finals (4 games won by approx 10 points more than expected), and slightly better than expected in the semi-finals
    • Interestingly, while Dublin have underperformed against Kerry in their last 3 league encounters, they have overperformed in their last 2 meetings, despite losing one of them
    • Dublin's home advantage helps them overcome the ratings gap between the teams so that the prediction model cannot pick between the teams!

    tl;dr - Draw game!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    After a 2 year hiatus, Dublin make their way back to the summit after a deserved All-Ireland final victory over their arch-rival Kerry.

    I will do up an end of year review between now and Christmas......




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Great job Laoisman11.

    On the face of it, Armagh should be favourites for promotion from Div 2 next year, to replace Roscommon. Cork should be in a strong position too, with Monaghan having it hard in Div 1, but given the history of those counties Monaghan will likely stay up with a win on the last day and Cork will mess up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,615 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    There is a meeting in Armagh tonight (Monday 07 August) to decide whether to keep McGeeney as Manager. If he goes, would that improve their chances?

    Four Ulster counties in Division 2 along with Louth and Meath gives it a northern slant geographically. Cork will have a bit of travelling to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,570 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Mc Geeney stays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭tenbob1


    Laoisman11, thank you for continuing to keep this thread running and updates. I always look forward to your updates and predictions !!



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    That time of the year again to look back and see how our team did in 2023....

    Biggest winners

    • Laois, surprisingly (to me at least), are the biggest winners of 2023, with 10.9 rating points and 9 places ranking places gained; all this achieved via a trip to the semi-finals of the Tailteann Cup and 5 out of 7 wins in Div 4
    • With 9.1 rating points improvement, and 5 ranking places gained, Antrim escaped relegation in Division 3 and almost made the Tailteann Cup final
    • Louth picked up 8.8 rating points and 4 ranking places, with a more than solid Division 2 campaign and a Leinster final appearance
    • Dublin were not far behind, the re-capture of Sam Maguire, plus a Division 2 title, takes them back to top of the charts, and added 8.7 rating points and 4 ranking places to their worth
    • Honorable mentions to Down, Sligo and Cork, who all gained more than 7 rating points

    Biggest losers

    • Limerick were by far the biggest losers in 2023, dropping 14.4 rating points and 10 ranking places. Division 2 proved too much, and 2 wins from 4 games in the Tailteann Cup capped off a bad season
    • With 10.7 rating points and 8 ranking places lost, Leitrim will want to forget 2023 - losing to New York, and then 0 from 3 in the Tailteann Cup was a poor return
    • Kerry fell from grace after last year's highs, losing 8.8 rating points and just one ranking place to finish the year in 2nd place
    • Despite a Connacht championship title, Galway will look back with regret at 2023, with Mayo putting end to their Division 1 final and All-Ireland championship ambitions
    • (Dis)honorable mentions to Fermanagh, Westmeath, Donegal and Clare who all lost more than 5 rating points





  • Registered Users Posts: 20,615 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Laois failed to get promotion from Division 4 even though they won 5 games. Fermanagh got promotion from 3 winning 6 games. They are at 25. Cavan were champions of 4 in 2022 but lost three places. Champions of 3 in 2023 but lost another three places.

    Laois were in the same Tailteann round robin as Cavan, Offaly and London. They progressed with two draws against Offaly and London. Cavan won three out of three, and were narrowly beaten by Down in the QF. Down put 8-16 past Laois in the SF. Laois won a game in Leinster but then conceded 4-30 to Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Not sure exactly what point you are making, or if there is a question behind that. What I would add is that Laois were coming from their lowest point ever at the end of last year; it's only been 3 years since Cavan were in an All-Ireland semi-final. When changes are presented, we need to keep in mind the baseline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    The GAA use the league ranking for All-Ireland qualification. 8 provincial finalists, previous year's Tailteann Cup winner and 7 league qualifiers.

    The 4 provinces have different seeding structures. A county can avail of a lopsided draw in one province to make a provincial final and knock a county of another province out of the All-Ireland e.g. Sligo beat London and New York. Meath were denied an All-Ireland spot as a result.

    One solution would be to have Championship Ranking at the end of the season:

    01. All-Ireland champions

    02. Runners-up

    03. Semi-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    04. Semi-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    05. Quarter-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    06. Quarter-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    07. Quarter-finalist 3 on league ranking.

    08. Quarter-finalist 4 on league ranking.

    09. Preliminary quarter-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    10. Preliminary quarter-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    11. Preliminary quarter-finalist 3 on league ranking.

    12. Preliminary quarter-finalist 4 on league ranking.

    13. 4th placed 1 on league ranking.

    14. 4th placed 2 on league ranking.

    15. 4th placed 3 on league ranking.

    16. 4th placed 4 on league ranking.

    17. Tailteann champions

    18. Runners-up

    19. Semi-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    20. Semi-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    21. Quarter-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    22. Quarter-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    23. Quarter-finalist 3 on league ranking.

    24. Quarter-finalist 4 on league ranking.

    25. Preliminary quarter-finalist 1 on league ranking.

    26. Preliminary quarter-finalist 2 on league ranking.

    27. Preliminary quarter-finalist 3 on league ranking.

    28. Preliminary quarter-finalist 4 on league ranking.

    29. 4th placed 1 on league ranking.

    30. 4th placed 2 on league ranking.

    31. 4th placed 3 on league ranking.

    32. 4th placed 4 on league ranking.

    --. New York

    Provincial championships should use the Championship ranking for balanced provincial draws.

    ULSTER

    Preliminary Round:

    Seed 8 v Seed 9

    Quarter-finals:

    Seeds 1 to 4 drawn against Seeds 5 to 7 and Preliminary Round winner.

    Semi-finals:

    Seed 1 and 2 or quarter-final winners drawn against Seeds 3 and 4 or quarter-final winners.

    LEINSTER

    Preliminary Round:

    Seed 6 to 8 drawn against Seeds 9 to 11.

    Quarter-finals:

    Seeds 1 to 4 drawn against Seeds 5 and Preliminary Round winners.

    Semi-finals:

    Seed 1 and 2 or quarter-final winners drawn against Seeds 3 and 4 or quarter-final winners.

    MUNSTER

    Quarter-finals:

    Seeds 3 to 4 drawn against Seeds 5 to 6.

    Semi-finals:

    Seeds 1 and 2 drawn against Seeds 3 and 4 or quarter-final winners.

    CONNACHT

    Quarter-finals:

    London's opponent determined based on existing rotation agreement.

    New York's opponents determined based on existing rotation agreement.

    Remaining quarter-final contested by lowest 2 league ranked counties of the remaining 3.

    Semi-finals:

    Seeds 1 and 2 or quarter-final winners, if applicable, drawn against Seeds 3 and 4 or quarter-final winners, if applicable.


    This way, each provincial championship will have their two highest ranked counties on both sides of their respective provincial draws. Lower ranked counties can still make provincial finalists but it should be more fairer and hard earned by potentially beating a higher ranked opponent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    A straightforward ranking table in football should be a matter of championship performance and league;

    1 - Dublin - All-Ireland - Winner - League 7

    2 - Kerry - All-Ireland - Runners-up - League 5

    3 - Monaghan - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 6

    4 - Derry - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 8

    5 - Mayo - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 1

    6 - Tyrone - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 4

    7 - Armagh - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 9

    8 - Cork - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 12

    9 - Galway - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 2

    10 - Roscommon - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 3

    11 - Donegal - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 10

    12 - Kildare - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 13

    13 - Louth - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 11

    14 - Clare - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 17

    15 - Westmeath - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 20

    16 - Sligo - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 23

    17 - Meath - Tailteann - Winner - League 14

    18 - Down - Tailteann - Runners-up - League 19

    19 - Antrim - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 22

    20 - Laois - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 27

    21 - Cavan - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 15

    22 - Limerick - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 18

    23 - Wexford - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 29

    24 - Carlow - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 30

    25 - Fermanagh - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 16

    26 - Offaly - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 21

    27 - Longford - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 25

    28 - Tipperary - Tailteann - Group 3rd - League 26

    29 - Wicklow - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 24

    30 - Leitrim - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 28

    31 - Waterford - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 31

    32 - London - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 32



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