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World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

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Comments



  • I'll try one last time.

    The UK, among other countries, implemented WPATH's clinical recommendations wholesale, including the "affirmation approach". The same recommendations that were made to Tavistock, which had to be closed down on the same basis i.e. lack of safeguarding.

    The Cass Report tore asunder this approach and the flawed medicine that underpinned it; the same flaws that have been exposed in the WPATH files themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    When anything involving children includes the need to keep parents out of it - huge alarm bells should go off!

    Did we learn nothing from the Catholic priests scandal ??

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,215 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Yikes, that is a long winded way of doubling down. How you can know anything about Canada having never been there is quite ignorant, but you do you on that one.

    Might want to be careful bringing up Jessica Yaniv as well…

    She is well known to British Columbians for several Human Rights Tribunal cases, including one against female aestheticians who would not wax her.

    A biological male that went to get waxed at a female only location…and cries about discrimination. Their track record (maybe go beyond what you read on wikipedia) is very sketchy, to say the least.

    In 2019, tribunal member Devyn Cousineau ordered Yaniv to pay the women $2,000 each for 'improper conduct' which included using the human rights law as a 'weapon' for 'extortion'

    They are a con artist, and a sick individual.

    But again, you do you on that one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Yikes, that is a long winded way of doubling down. How you can know anything about Canada having never been there is quite ignorant, but you do you on that one.


    Easily, given you’re not the only source anyone is obligated to rely on, there’s plenty anyone can know about Canada without having to rely on the emigrant who’s spent a wet weekend in a foreign country and imagines they know all there is to know about the place. You might have a point if the discussion were solely about Canada, and who has or hasn’t been there, but it’s not, and therefore you just don’t have a point. You say to me ‘you do you’, but when I’m doing me and telling you the last time you tried to foist your feelings upon me that let that be the end of it, you STILL persist in doing so, attempting to prevent me from me doing me. It’s a noble attempt, but if Destination Canada couldn’t convince me to even so much as visit the place (and Canada is only one of many countries I have no wish to entertain), then you’re certainly not going to be able to, so again, even if it’s an indication of tripling down, outright ignorance as far as you’re concerned, I’m not the least bit concerned, as similarly as my attitude towards Canada - I have no interest in your opinions in that regard either.

    Now, back on-topic:

    Might want to be careful bringing up Jessica Yaniv as well…


    Your advice here is equally unwarranted. Though I understand you may feel equally protective of the citizens of your adopted country, the reason I bring them up is as an example of the nonsense which emanates from Canada in an attempt to portray the country as a shìthole, in order to convince anyone who doesn’t know any better that it is indeed a shìthole. That’s not me doubling down, it’s just repeating what I said in the previous post, which you appear to have ignored. I’m not going to call you ignorant for doing so, as that would be uncivil. What I am going to do however, is point out that it was because of the deluge of media interest in Yanniv’s various adventures in stupidity that they were portrayed as being representative of a threat to humanity on the basis of them being transgender, and rather than confine their shìt within it’s geographic Canadian borders, the Internet has no borders, so it was inflicted upon the world, and we were all forewarned that Yanniv’s adventures in stupidity was a sign of things to come.

    That didn’t happen, which prompted the question in my mind four years later as to the whereabouts and whatabouts of this biological weapon that was set to terrorise the free world. The anticlimactic answer to that question, is simply that nothing happened. Nothing became of Yanniv, they never even left Canada, and so if you’re still over there, you’re more than welcome to them, because from my perspective - I would never attempt to speak for anyone else, but I certainly don’t want them. From your perspective you’re perfectly entitled to perceive this unwillingness as ignorance, but like I pointed out to you previously - I’ve never drank my own piss either, I don’t have to, to know that it’s a bad idea. I’ve also said you previously that you should take your own advice and when you read something on the internet that you don’t like - move on. All you’ve managed to do so far is demonstrate that you are incapable of taking your own advice, not uncommon among people who seek to control other people, which is why laws exist which prevent them from doing so, even in Canada, as observed by what happened, or rather - didn’t happen, to Jessica Yaniv.

    There’s a lesson for everyone in that tale, and despite your persistence in inflicting your feelings upon me in spite of being rejected numerous times now, I figure you’re at least intelligent enough to figure out the lessons you could learn from the case for yourself, in order to avoid being in the same position where due to the dunning-kruger effect - your expectations exceed reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,215 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    This just reads as a stupid person tries to sound intelligent. Nice work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭plodder


    So, I didn't get too much time to look at the SPHE material online, but from what I did see, I'd just make a few points.

    • I agree now the Catholic Church was involved in formulating the policy.
    • It seemed like there was a consensus (incl. from some of the Catholic bodies) that a new curriculum could be accommodated within the varied ethos-es (if that is the plural of ethos?)
    • The definition of gender identity in the curriculum is much milder than the one I quoted earlier from a different document. It says nothing about it being fixed at a young age, and it distinguishes clearly from sex. More about that below<*>
    • I remain unconvinced that the Irish Times article by Education editor (Carl O'Brien) misrepresented the situation in that the curriculum must be taught ie. "New Junior Cycle curriculum will oblige schools to teach about gender identity"
    • It's conceivable that you are both right though - that if a school took a particularly hard line stance on it, rejecting it entirely, then maybe it could end up in the courts, and the school might win, if they made a strong case that their ethos rejects gender identity theory/ideology ….

    … which brings me to the situation at third level, where gender theory is much more embedded, through the Athena Swan charter that institutions are obliged to sign up to, in order to receive government research funding (no constitutional protection against the secular religion here I'm afraid). Fair play to Colette Colfer (lecturer in world religions) for getting it changed at SET university in Waterford but it remains the case apparently at UCD, TCD, RCSI, where they all falsely claim that misgendering is "unlawful". That's fairly serious.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/04/18/university-changes-gender-identity-policy-that-said-refusal-to-use-pronouns-was-unlawful/

    <*> I don't have a major issue with the SPHE curriculum from what I could see of it. It's really just puzzlement at how something which affects a tiny number of people, and I mean the really tiny number of people who have consistently identified as transgender since a young age, and into middle age, but has been projected onto everyone. As far as I am concerned, the way the argument goes about gender being fixed at a young age (which isn't stated in the policy but has to be part of the background justification for it), you could just as easily argue that most children's fixed view of themselves as human beings from a young age, could justify a minority's view who identify as cats. "Sure, on the surface, biologically we are human, but inside we are cats".

    The rest of it is either a passing phase, a mistaken reaction to sexuality, or an aspect of co-occurring mental health issues imo. Schools never formalised policies around the recognition of mods, rockers, punks, goths and all. More likely they went out of their way to disavow all of it. Maybe it is a reaction to that disavowal where we are attracted to the idea of recognising everyone's individuality now. It's really where other people are being compelled to participate, that the problems arise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,185 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios






  • I cannot possibly see any way back from the Cass report.

    Belgium and Netherlands both suspended the medical practice after the report, too.

    It's all but over. Better late than never.

    Even moderate supporters / celebrities on social media are now awkwardly rowing back their support, now realizing the error of their support to begin with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Maybe it is a reaction to that disavowal where we are attracted to the idea of recognising everyone's individuality now. It's really where other people are being compelled to participate, that the problems arise.


    Nah, in most circumstances group identity is still the most critical factor in determining policy, it’s why for example when one individual imagines they have the authority to violate their employers policies and inflict their delusions on the students, the individual in question is the only person who is subject to disciplinary action for their behaviour.

    Schools, in particular, are used to dealing with complaints of behaviour of that nature by their employees, in contrast to how those circumstances would have been dealt with differently in the past where the student was taught that it is they who are the cause of the disruption, because of their unwillingness to participate in the delusions of adults. It’s also why contained within the Constitution is the right every child has not to participate in religious instruction:

    Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article44

    That too, impacts only upon a small minority of students, in spite of claims that it is being projected onto everyone and the majority are are being compelled to participate in what you might identify as “secular religion” (I wouldn’t though). I’ve no immediate issue either with children should they identify as cats, they’re still expected to understand gender identity. It’s only if they started marking their territory around the classroom and demanding kitty litter trays be installed in all the bathrooms that they may be told simply they’re going to be put outside if they don’t behave themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Are these puberty blockers legal for children in Ireland?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    On the advice of Scotland's Chief Medical Officer, the Scottish equivalent to GIDS, the Sandyford Clinic, is pausing not only puberty blockers but also cross sex hormones. Another health board has already stopped putting new patients on PBs (I'm not sure whether that includes cross sex hormones.)

    https://news.stv.tv/scotland/why-have-scotlands-gender-clinics-paused-prescription-of-puberty-blockers

    So yes, it really only remains to see how long it will take before those many politicians and other public figures who've been thoroughly enmeshed in gender ideology decide that clinging on desperately to ever-more discredited beliefs is only making them look worse than admitting they got it wrong.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes. They've always been legal for children with premature puberty, and remain so.

    The controversy is not about legality, but whether they are an appropriate treatment for children with gender dysphoria. They were only ever experimental in that indication, but due to pressure from activists, were given outside of research studies as though they were the accepted treatment for it.

    Indeed they often seem to have been given along with particularly poor record-keeping, making meaningful follow-up of outcomes extremely difficult.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Presumably no proper doctor in Ireland prescribes these blockers to children and that's why they have to go abroad?



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    The number of children receiving puberty blocking medication in Ireland is <10.

    Thanks in part to a dismally managed health service and in part to very good doctors, the situation in Ireland is "good" if your priority is the avoidance of visiting irreversible harm on children. It could be a lot better with the introduction of better mental health support and therapy, and some publicity around the danger of activist groups touting the fantastical "safe and reversible" line, but who knows how likely that is.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    While I agree mental services in Ireland are an underfunded mess, just resourcing that fully isn't the cure.

    If we can figure out how to prevent the need for mental health services at all we would be in a much better position.

    The recent trend in obsession with appearance, driven by Instagram, Snapchat etc can come at significant cost to young children)teenagers. I was 17 before I realised I had big lips (the ladies loved them they were no chore 😀) when a school friend made a joke. That would be impossible today with the culture of selfies, sharing images and the endless discussion on appearance.

    For a cohort of our youth and older people that's not a good thing.

    Add in the 24hr easy access to porn primarily for our young men, and the lack of positive male role models isn't good for our young men.

    I think when you combine the above it shouldn't be a surprise that some many teenage girls are rejecting womanhood.

    Getting control of large social media companies, and getting in front of AI before it makes it worse would be a starting point. That will take EU wide action.

    Education for kids and parents alike would be another important element.

    It's well past time to act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,053 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-68838029

    In the UK 38% of kids aged 5 to 7 are on social media

    65% use messaging apps



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    USA data but the poorer the kid the more time they spend looking at a screen. A recent survey for poorer kids in USA had daily screen time at 9 hours!

    https://www.apa.org/monitor/2020/04/cover-kids-screens#:~:text=A%20report%20released%20in%20October,each%20day%20(The%20Common%20Sense

    "As children mature, they’re exposed to more screens, with more diverse content via television, video games and social media. A report released in October 2019 by the nonprofit organization Common Sense Media found that 8- to 12-year-olds in the United States now use screens for entertainment for an average of 4 hours, 44 minutes a day, and 13- to 18-year-olds are on screens for an average of 7 hours, 22 minutes each day (The Common Sense Census: Media Use by Tweens and Teens , 2019). These numbers don’t count time using screens for schoolwork or homework.

    Common Sense Media’s data also reveal a substantial disparity in media use based on socioeconomic status, with 8- to 12-year-olds from high ­income families using 1 hour, 50 minutes less of media each day than kids of the same age from low­ income families. Teens show a similar gap. Previous research has suggested that increased screen time in poorer families may be an attempt by parents to protect their children; studies in multiple countries have found that parent anxiety about neighborhood safety and actual neighborhood safety are linked to more screen time and less physical activity. For example, health researchers Valerie Carson, PhD, of the University of Alberta, and Ian Janssen, PhD, of Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, found that kids who lived in neighborhoods with the highest social and physical disorder (such as crime, graffiti and gang activity) had a 40% to 60% higher likelihood of high screen use (International Journal of Behavioral Nutrition and Physical Activity , Vol. 9, No. 66, 2012). Higher-income families may also have more alternatives to screen time available, in the form of extracurricular activities and safe recreation areas."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    In reality the low number is due to it being such a niche area of the national public healthcare system that there was never any real need before to provide the services in Ireland, it was just cheaper (or better value for the taxpayer if you like), to avail of the services in other countries such as the UK. Waiting lists are just a reality of the national public healthcare system in every country. For context, the number of children thought to be on puberty blockers in the UK is ~ 100 (estimated, because follow-up is not really a thing, never mind the numbers who are procuring medication through private healthcare and other illicit means):

    The HSE said there are less than ten people under the age of 16 on puberty blocker medication, following specialist review by a team.


    Fewer than 100 young people are currently on puberty blockers in the UK.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2024/0313/1437607-uk-gender/


    The issue of puberty blockers is as good a distraction as any to blow completely out of proportion in order to divert attention away from the absolute farce that is the national public healthcare system, not just in the UK or Ireland, but in most Western countries, it’s simply using a wedge issue to distract from the far more obvious issues impacting upon the greater number of the population. It’s not just Ireland where the HSE is in a bad way:

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health-funding-crisis-will-be-even-worse-this-time-next-year-hse-boss-warned-stephen-donnelly-before-budget-2024/a1596727175.html

    It’s no different in the UK:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/11/nhs-dying-statistic-crisis-healthcare-75th-anniversary


    Could be in a worse position:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/06/canada-primary-healthcare-budget-cut-study


    Perhaps revisiting the diagnostic criteria for gender identity disorder in the DSM-4 and making the criteria more stringent for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the DSM-5 may not have been such a good idea after all, as it exposed the myth being peddled of success rates in treating children who were never experiencing gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria in the first place, but rather their parents who were adamant that their children were neither homosexual nor transgender, and sought the assistance of quack doctors relying on crude stereotypes to claim success rates that led to the idea that children could be converted to grow out of whatever condition afflicted their parents and those who were determined to maintain delusions and a social order that would always be in conflict with reality:

    https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-no-80-of-trans-youth-do

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8903690/amp


    As for the idea that social media is somehow responsible? Social media is no more responsible than popular culture was always responsible for adults externalising their internal issues. It was no different when Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein was published and she only 20 years of age, critics imagined it could only have been written by a man, and even then the book was described as “a tissue of horrible and disgusting absurdity” (they’d a real way with words back then), but there’s no need to go back that far. Some of us here are undoubtedly of an age where we have fond (and perhaps not so fond for some of us) memories of the music of our youth, and the classic lyrics of some of the best of Britpop:

    Girls who want boys
    Who like boys to be girls
    Who do boys like they're girls
    Who do girls like they're boys
    Always should be someone you really love


    Damon Albarn was inspired to write the song while on holiday in MagalufSpain, with then-girlfriend Justine Frischmann, lead singer of Elastica. According to Albarn, the city had "really tacky Essex nightclubs" and a rampant sexual scene among visitors, with "All these blokes and all these girls meeting at the watering hole and then just copulating. There's no morality involved, I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_%26_Boys_%28Blur_song%29



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Which points to the totally manufactured hysteria around puberty blockers - but its an easy one to rally the manipulated troops around

    "Think of the children".

    No one has actually established that puberty blockers are not an appropriate treatment - and this is not the conclusion of the Cass report. Its also a highly difficult thing to establish since a double blind trial is loaded with ethical difficulties where denying a cohort of children a treatment which they could benefit from simply as part of a medical trial is a very dodgy thing to do.



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  • …manufactured hysteria around puberty blockers

    What you refer to as "manufactured hysteria", I would call the need to safeguard children from ideological and permanent physical harm.

    You then go on to state:

    No one has actually established that puberty blockers are not an appropriate treatment 

    That means the opposite of this statement is also true; that nobody has established they are a safe and appropriate treatment. That is not a good reason to experiment with puberty blockers on children.

    If anything, the bare minimum you should argue for is a temporary cessation if or until the evidence-base is firmly established; the same principle we would apply to any other aspect of medicine / medical research.

    But as the Cass Report shows — medical research you have denied the validity of — children are being pigeon-holed down one single "treatment" pathway; that the Dutch "affirmation model" is not rooted in the best medical science and should be discarded; that a more "holistic" approach (to borrow Dr Cass' word) is needed; that children are being actively harmed. This is not research to be casually dismissed on a whim. The stakes are too high here.

    I strongly suggest listening to the actual science on this, and not the word of activists who care nothing for the children but who care everything for the ideology they are so dogmatically affixed to.

    And like all dogmas, it conveniently rejects evidence that contradicts its core beliefs.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Nobody has established giving them cocaine and alcohol isn't part of the treatment either

    Medicine isn't based on doing things until they're proven wrong. It's based on doing things because they're proven right.

    Can I ask you to look at the question I posed to you earlier re your view on anorexics btw? Do you encourage their self-view and shield them from other views too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You really aren't interested in the actual science since you have set your heart against an effective treatment. You don't want studies to be carried out to prove it's effectiveness. You don't want to see data which shows it reduces self harm among those who receive it. You simply don't want puberty blockers to be used on gender dysphoric children and you have made this abundantly clear.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • I trust the word of a world-class paediatrician with decades of experience in this very area, over any activist or forum contributor. I also trust the other clinics throughout Europe that have come to exactly the same conclusions as Dr Cass.

    Sorry if that makes me an extremist, but I'm willing to hedge my bets here.

    You really aren't interested in the actual science since you have set your heart against an effective treatment

    This is exactly the same line of argument that conspiratorial anti-vaxxers use when talking about ivermectin and COVID-19.

    Both sides claim to know "the True science"; that shadowy people want to hide the science etc.

    In fact, both groups are actively anti-science, and both groups are dogmatically attached to their own ideology, detached from both reality and science itself.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What "actual science"?

    From the very opening pages of the WPATH files -

    "WPATH is not a medical group"

    "WPATH is not a scientific group"

    "WPATH has misled the public"

    "WPATH has abandoned the Hippocratic oath"

    This is as unscientific as it's possible to get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I trust the actual experts in their field - the actual people administering treatment.

    You do understand that in order to for fill Dr Cass recommendation more puberty blockers must be delivered, and in order to establish a robust statistical model more children need to be using them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You are using an activists report to make your case. Please.





  • Doctors practicing experimental medicine does not automatically make them "experts"; it makes them doctors.

    You yourself have just admitted:

    in order to establish a robust statistical model more children need to be using them.

    The implication of which is that we currently do not know the long-term harm that these drugs cause children because there isn't the evidence to support their initial use to begin with. However inadvertent, that supports the very point I have been making.

    The treatment protocol from those doctors has not only been shown to be defective, but counter to how medical protocol should be followed, and — worse than that — actively harmful toward children.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    No I'm not.

    But hey ho - you can't argue against what the report says, so you just attack the authors. Typical really.

    Want to answer the question on anorexics btw? Would you support their self-image and shield them from other views?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The implication is that Dr Cass has greenlighted an expansion in puberty blockers use in order to carry out a scientific study. As I have said on numerous occasions there will be very little change in those who get puberty blockers just that in future they will be more closely monitored.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Hmm. A "robust statistical model" you say?

    Do you accept that Dr Cass complained in her report that several clinics treating young adults refused to cooperate with her by sharing their data, which would have allowed her to see the long terms effects of the various treatments on these children, once they had become adults and were no longer in the paediatric system?

    Suggestion of lack of data integrity in gender clinics. The Cass report revealed that in a truly unexpected turn of events, all but one adult gender clinic refused to cooperate in a data analysis project that would have allowed  tracking of longer-term outcomes of 9,000 gender dysphoric young people, which included both those who underwent gender transitions as well as those who chose less invasive options. The responsibility for the research, which has obtained ethics permission, has now been handed over to NHSE, which will conduct the review without the gender clinics’s cooperation. The objection of the gender clinics and the responses to those objections (both contained in the appendices to the report) suggest that the reasons for the lack of cooperation may be ideological.

    Does that sound as though they want to establish a "robust statistical model"?

    And it could be worse than that - might they even have something to hide?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Source is everything and that is why reputable reports always reference both their funding and sources. The WPATH report is activist dog ****.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The reason the evidence based is so poor is because the service was so grossly underfunded that it was impossible to do followup. Who's fault was that exactly ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    "Source is everything" you say, while providing no source for your assertion that they WPATH report is activist-driven.

    Interesting.

    Tell me shoog - what is your view on anorexics? Would you support their self-image? I find it's interesting you keep avoiding this question.

    I find it interesting to how interested you are in science while studying medical treatments are valid until proven otherwise, in contrast to any generally accepted norm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You have never asked me that question. However from your framing it's obvious that you want to declare transgenderism as a mental illness. How progressive.





  • I'm really sorry, but you cannot make false and misleading statements like this:

    Dr Cass has greenlighted an expansion in puberty blockers use

    Compare this statement with the nuance of what Dr Cass actually said:

    Children/ young people referred to NHS gender services must receive a holistic assessment of their needs to inform an individualised care plan. This should include screening for neurodevelopmental conditions, including autism spectrum disorder, and a mental health assessment.

    The option to provide masculinising/feminising hormones from age 16 is available, but the Review recommends extreme caution. There should be a clear clinical rationale for providing hormones at this stage rather than waiting until an individual reaches 18.  Every case considered for medical treatment should be discussed at a national Multi- Disciplinary Team (MDT).

    For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.

    Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.

    The use of masculinising / feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.

    The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.

    The controversy surrounding the use of medical treatments has taken focus away from what the individualised care and treatment is intended to achieve for individuals seeking support from NHS gender services.

    The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.

    While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Do you have evidence that this is the true reason, or is that speculation on your part?

    Cass didn't say anything of the sort anyway.

    If they have a valid explanation for failings, wouldn't they have cooperated with her investigation, pointing out the need for extra money to be allocated for records?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You took a lot of effort there to not refute what I said. The number of children who receive drug or surgical interventions is very very small. The screening carried out reflects what Cass recommends as best practice.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    What sort of illness do you think it is?

    I mean, if it is not an illness, then there's no need for transgender medical treatments, is there?

    We don't, for instance, treat homosexuality as an illness any longer because nobody requires medical treatment in order to achieve/validate their homosexuality. And the so-called "medical treatment" in the past was to stop someone from being gay, not to enable them to become so. That's a huge difference, which shows that being gay is innate, and not an illness.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"





  • You said Hilary Cass "greenlighted an expansion of puberty blocker use".

    This was a wholly false statement, and misleadingly gives the impression that Cass has no problem with puberty blocker use in children.

    And yes, the quotes from the report above precisely refute that misleading statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The service providers saw this whole review as a carry forward of the hysterical response to Dr Bells whistleblower activism - which was a reflection of his own anti-trans position. I would be quite sympathetic to their position given the wave of right-wing culture wars bullshit they were been swamp by.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's kind of amusing to see you accusing others of taking an ideologically-based position, given the above.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    She greenlighted a series of studies to show the use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. You cannot do that without people getting puberty blockers and you cannot do that without a robust sample size. The number of people recieving puberty blockers for gender dysphoria is so small that it barely meets the required numbers to draw a statistically robust conclusion.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Hey I didn't say it was right, but I understand why an overstretch clinician who perceived themselves under attack would take that position.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Actually I did - see my post stamped 16-04-2024 11:04am

    I see you've avoided answering it again now.

    Ditto the question on why you think medicine should be ok until proven bad rather than the other way around

    I should add I don't expect any better from you at this stage, but I feel it's important to keep asking you questions you can't answer because your lack of answer should discredit you for others reading in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Seriously?? Who do you think pays these clinics which refused to cooperate with an official government-funded investigation chaired by an eminent paediatrican?

    If they perceived themselves as under attack by Cass (and had nothing to hide) then I would suggest that that would be a very foolish approach to take. Makes them sound like the anti choicers who complained about Prof Arulkumaran in the Savita Halappanaver investigation. Especially as, like the anti choicers, they only really began dissing Cass after the report didn't go their way.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Hey - I am just accepting what the medical profession says about transgenderism - and they don't say its a mental illness.





  • But you don't accept what the medical profession says about the dangers of puberty blocker use in children.

    It's all very a la carte; that science I'll accept; this other science, not so much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I don't accept your interpretation of what they say - no.

    Puberty blockers have been used for a long time on precocious puberty at this stage and if they presented a significant risk to health they would have been withdrawn in all cases. This has not happened so I just don't accept that they are a danger to children.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    It's interesting to read through the reports and see the various trans myths picked apart - the "Transition or suicide myth", the myth around a suicide epidemic in trans youth, the myth around a 1% detransition rate, etc

    On the last, Cass quotes an individual she met who transitioned and later regretted it. "I felt like it wasn’t, you know, acceptable to go back. It wasn’t a thing to go back, you know. It wasn’t something that was talked about. It didn’t feel like an option that they wanted to discuss or even mention"

    I can't remember was it on here or in one of the reports that people mentioned online pressure against people who spoke about detransitioning.

    It all has an uncomfortable whiff of Scientology about it. There's only 1% (or some tiny number) of people leave Scientology too. If you talk about leaving then church or even say anything critical, then you get nasty pressure (see Louis Theroux's My Scientology Movie for example) to talk you out of it. Maybe a humbling public apology too like so many public figures have been beaten in to.

    And hey, there's only a small number of Scientologists and what harm did they ever do to you? All they want to do is live their life as they identify (say the mouthpieces like Shoog and Annasopra here - but when those people start talking out like in the Cass report they must be discredited.)

    Add in medical interventions straight out of Dr Moreau's Island and it's really really nasty stuff I think.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog




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