World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904705#Comment_121904705

Really not going to respond to anyone who goes out of their way to misgender someone to make their point.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904996#Comment_121904996

I haven't misgendered anyone. Unless you think that Marci Bowers is a biological female, which I think not many sane people do.

But of course, any excuse to go back to "No Debate" eh?

Grand, so.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905045#Comment_121905045

What is wrong with “trans identifying male” ? It’s accurate.

I’m not that familiar with Marci Bowers but will refer to her with any pronouns required - or as Ms/Miss Bowers as this is politeness and basic respect.

However she is a biological male who identifies as a transgender woman. Facts are just facts.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891663#Comment_121891663

The evidence of that being conversion therapy (trans away the gay) is pretty much non existent. All international research shows extremely low detransition rates of roughly 1% to 4%

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905060#Comment_121905060

Only if "hardcore transphobe" means anyone who doesn't believe that trans women are literally women.

I'm perfectly happy to respect the fiction that they are, as long as women (and children's) are not at risk of harm from that. Calling Marci Bowers "she" doesn't bother me in the least (though it's all a bit pointless, aka virtue-signalling, on an Irish forum - but I don't have to actually believe it. If you think that's a transphobic opinion, too bad.

Or is this another instance where you get to mindread what people haven't said yet "really" believe?

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905070#Comment_121905070

With respect, what has that to do with my point?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905045#Comment_121905045

The communication equivalent of a child taking home their ball in a tantrum.

Always amusing to see an adult channel the same energy.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905062#Comment_121905062

The reason I've started using "trans identifying male" is because I've come across people on twitter and elsewhere who think that a trans woman is a biological woman who merely "identifies" as a man (and hence can't see why there would be a non bigoted objection to them playing in the women's categories in sports).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/06/third-of-britons-dont-know-trans-women-born-male/

I don't think anyone who is interested in clarity would object to using clear language.

But I also think that some people (activists) want ambiguity, so that the issues do appear unclear and many people, but specifically all the "non experts", can't express themselves properly, making it easier for the "experts" to tell us that we're confused and don't understand the issue.

Hence the necessity to insist that anyone using clear language is transphobic.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905070#Comment_121905070

I've seen those numbers knocking about but they're related to adults (and the studies have a high number of non responders, something around 30% I think). So they're not valid when we're talking about paediatric care.

What is valid is that not only is it in the DSM but is also backed by data collected at any clinic who tracked it is that the majority of children and adolescents who go through gender distress desist when they reach adulthood. That was under watchful waiting and those kids would now be affirmed under the affirmation model.

"Rates of persistence of gender dysphoria from childhood into adolescence or adulthood vary. In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistence has ranged from 12% to 50%."

DSM-V

"Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters."

Frontiers | A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder (frontiersin.org)

There is a slight change in the criteria for gender identity disorder, as it used to be known as, but not enough of a change to ignore this data.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905194#Comment_121905194

You quote research that has a near perfect statistical correlation between initial referrals and actual final treatment of adolescents. Your evidence supports the belief that the treatment model been followed in clinics is highly effective at identify those children who need treatment and actually get it.

The consultation process and filtering is demonstrably highly effective. Nice find.

The actual affirnative model of treatment simply means that a first step in assessment is to actually accept what person is saying about themselves, and then decide on the best course of action for that individual. That results in around 85% recieving nothing more than support through various forms of counciling. Physical and drug treatments are still very much the exception and only offered after all avenues have been explored.

This is far from what the hysteria would lead you to believe, but the evidenceis clear in the sort of studies you shared.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121904705#Comment_121904705

Racism, homophobia and so on are inherent traits, not only considered acceptable, but actively encouraged in many cultures and societies across the globe. The socially learned aspect is the transmission of this knowledge from authoritative sources, such as religious leaders.

Anorexia is an eating disorder once thought to manifest only in women, but modern research has identified that the phenomenon has been historically under-recognised, under-diagnosed and under-treated, in men. Similarly, autism has been historically under-recognised, under-diagnosed and under-treated in women.

Why would Bowers suggest that ‘social contagion’ might be a reason why so many young people believe they want this surgery? The most obvious reason is that Marci Bowers is an idiot, but in the interests of clarity, as you’re obviously keen on the idea of clarity, the suggestion that Marci Bowers is an idiot requires further manspaining explanation.

Because Marci Bowers, as well as being one of many expert surgeons performing vaginoplasties and so on, is also an activist who oversees the design and development of the WPATH guidelines in which the attempt was made to subsume people who are intersex (a concept which according to you doesn’t exist) under the transgender umbrella, by way of attempting to introduce the term ‘physical intersexuality’. Organisations representing people who are intersex were having none of that crap which sought to introduce ambiguity in an area in which was clearly distinct from the concept of being transgender, or under the original definition proposed by Harry Benjamin, an endocrinologist, sexologist and founder of the organisation that became WPATH - ‘transsexual’. No taboos about sex there, contrary to the claim you’ve often made of a perceived taboo about sex.

It’s simply in Bowers’ interests to promote the idea of acceptance of the concept of ‘social contagion’ in order to get their other ideas on the table, such as the guidelines for the treatment of children with gender dysphoria that according to WPATH guidelines they be permitted to socially transition, and be allowed to do so in a formal education environment and so on, such as being permitted to wear their preferred uniform for their preferred gender, use of their taken name, and their preferred pronouns and so on, which is how Enoch has managed to land himself in a spot of bother recently with not too many people other than his immediate family quick to come to his defence based upon his interpretation of a passage in an ancient textbook of ambiguous authorship, which is regarded according to his ideology as the ultimate moral authority. No ambiguity there claims Enoch, a belief which is in direct contradiction to reality.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905169#Comment_121905169

But I also think that some people (activists) want ambiguity, so that the issues do appear unclear and many people, but specifically all the "non experts", can't express themselves properly, making it easier for the "experts" to tell us that we're confused and don't understand the issue.

I’m pretty sure you’ve read the article, it is your source after all, but the people who appear to want ambiguity there are the people who conducted the survey, and from the results of the survey which they conducted, their claim is that a third of people in the UK are confused and don’t understand, that the issues are unclear and so on. They don’t appear to be claiming that people can’t express themselves properly, but that appears to be what they’re suggesting might happen, according to Maya Forstater the results of the survey are “very worrying”. They are if one is determined to be an ignorant cretin and keep their job, not so much otherwise.

The survey was conducted by an organisation founded in 2018 whose sole objective appears to be introducing ambiguity in UK legislation where clarity already exists, in order to undermine the last two decades of progress in equality legislation which began with the passage of the Gender Recognition Act in 2004 as a result of the decision in Goodwin v United Kingdom at the ECHR - a case pursued by a non-activist, non-expert ‘trans identifying biological male’ (to use your rather convoluted terminology that you claim offers clarity), who complained about their treatment in relation to employment, social security and pensions and their inability to marry. Basically they just wanted equal treatment in law as everyone else was already entitled to.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905154#Comment_121905154

You claim that affirmation as a policy is a form of conversion therapy i.e. some sort of ludicrous "trans the gay away" - That just isn't true. It's nonsense. The detransition rates for trans adolescents is extremely low - recent studies suggest as low as 1%.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906049#Comment_121906049

I believe you may have your wires crossed - I’ve not claimed anything even close to that. Unless you could remind me where I did please ? Thanks.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905290#Comment_121905290

Where did that 85% come from?

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906049#Comment_121906049

What's the time frame on follow up for that 1%?

The reason I ask is following up after a year or even 2 is too short a time frame. Realistically you won't know until they're in the 20's.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121905290#Comment_121905290

Not sure how you concluded that on basis of linked study.

The study is a review of male patients " In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002.

So these boys were assessed 30 years ago.

What Marcus Evans and other whistle blowers are saying is that the care has changed from a holistic approach with a full initial assessment but this has changed completely in the last 20 years where there was a rush to just treat the gender dysphoria.

The patient set is now majority older girls rather than young boys.

All those girls were there all along but no one noticed? Generations of teenage girls with gender dysphoria that no one spotted, suddenly appear..

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908116#Comment_121908116

The threat of violence both from society and your immediate family have always been a powerful disincentive to coming out in any way. Since the onset of the current anti-trans hysteria violence against out transgender and intersex people has sky rocketed. Most trans hate crimes would have previously gone unreported as such since there was no legal reason to record them as hate crimes. The introduction of a raft of hate crime and hate speech legislation has changed that.

Its not difficult to understand why historically most transgender people never came out.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907399#Comment_121907399

Based upon Tavistocks reporting of people referred and ultimately treated.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908152#Comment_121908152

Tavistock and all similar organisations currently rightly under scrutiny would have every reason not to record information that would make the truth of what they are doing to children come out.

Mermaids are next to be investigated hopefully.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908298#Comment_121908298

Paranoid much.

Not worth a response.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908116#Comment_121908116

All those girls were there all along but no one noticed? Generations of teenage girls with gender dysphoria that no one spotted, suddenly appear..

You appear to be presenting that statement as though anyone should be surprised by it. Considering numerous factors that were involved in the under diagnosis of gender dysphoria among young girls, and the fact that mandatory sterilisation was a condition of any medical or surgical intervention, it really isn’t the least bit surprising. It’s similar to the way in which, as one author puts it when speaking of the increase in young girls being diagnosed with autism:

The shifting demographics of autism are not limited to sex. The proportion of nonwhite children with autism has also grown swiftly over the past decade. In the C.D.C.’s new report, autism rates among Black and Latino 8-year-olds surpassed those of white children for the first time.

“Autism was this thing that happened to little white boys, and sometimes those little white boys grew up to be Trekkies or Silicon Valley programmers,” Dr. Onaiwu said. “It didn’t happen to the rest of us — but it did.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/10/science/autism-rate-girls.html

Your statement isn’t really any different from the rather astounding statement by the President of Iran at the time in 2007 when he claimed:

"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who has told you we have that."

At the same time, Iran claims to be one of the world’s most progressive societies in terms of transgender healthcare, which, is true at least on the face of it:

In fact, sex-reassignment surgery is not only legal in Iran, but Tehran is considered to be an international hub for obtaining it. The procedure has been allowed since Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini learned of the hardships of a trans woman and issued a religious decree to legalize it in the mid-1980s. Since then legal gender recognition has been possible, and those individuals who undergo gender confirmation surgery are accepted in the eyes of the law. 

http://www.us-iran.org/resources/2021/7/15/homosexuality-gender-assignment-in-iran

I specifically chose the American Iranian Council as a source btw, they’re about as unbiased as Marcus Evans is a whistleblower 😒

ceadaoin.

In Iran, gay people are pressured to transition , and become "straight", or face the death penalty. Hardly a great example of progressive ideas.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908800#Comment_121908800

It’s a great example of how progressive Iran is, from the perspective of the Iranian State, in their efforts to portray themselves as paragons of virtue, and Western culture and values as the enemy of their great society.

Of course it’s not any sort of an example of progress given it’s considered an abuse of human rights, which again they claim are ‘Western standards’.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908298#Comment_121908298

Mermaids are next to be investigated hopefully.

The charities sector in the UK is fairly well regulated with investigations into all sorts of charitable organisations activities. That’s often how bad management practices come to the attention of the authorities as opposed to the idea of there being any ‘whistleblowers’ involved. But just in case you missed it:

https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/urgent-review-launched-mermaids-report-reveals-oppression-staff/governance/article/1811970

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908152#Comment_121908152

I don't think that's true as I don't think they've given any real statistical breakdown of their patients. In general their data keeping was poor and was one of the things that O'Shea and Moran were worried about when their patients progressed to the adult services in Ireland.

What they did give was this graph which strongly disagrees with the 85% you mention.

Remember they claimed they were more stringent in their referrals than what the WPATH recommended.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121906049#Comment_121906049

Still waiting on the proof where you claim I said anything like that …

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909633#Comment_121909633

That graphs does nothing of the sort. GIDs did not treat most of their referrals. As I said most received counciling nothing more.

CatFromHue

Yeah I think I'm going to leave you to believe whatever you want.

If you think that graph says only 15% of patients were referred best of luck.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910046#Comment_121910046

Your deliberately misreading what I said. GIDs does not treat most of it's referrals ( ie those referred to the GIDs unit). Only 15% who are referred recieve any form of drug or surgical treatment. Less than 5% subsequently seek surgery.