World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

El Gato De Negocios

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1779289614315819439?t=AWefqh_ysDvIppYgd28VbQ&s=08

tHoSe gIrLs sHoUlD hAvE tRaInEd hArDeR.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017681#Comment_122017681

It's almost a parody of comedy you'd have seen 20-years ago.

It's embarrassing and unjust in equal measure this is allowed to happen.

In fact, it's flat-out abuse.

concerned_tenant

A really excellent article by Andrew Doyle on the latest report, part of which says:

The files revealed WPATH’s general lack of ethical and professional standards. There are messages proving that surgeons and therapists are aware that a significant proportion of young people referred to gender clinicians suffer from mental-health problems. Some specialists associated with WPATH are proceeding with treatment in the knowledge that no consent has been secured from either the children or those directly responsible for their wellbeing. They have also withheld from patients details of potential lifelong complications, or continued down this path knowing that the children do not understand the implications. But then, how could a pre-pubescent or even adolescent child fully grasp the concepts of lifelong sterility or loss of sexual function?

And as he argues toward the end of his piece, all government institutions and quangos should permanently sever their ties with any body — whether it's Stonewall or Mermaids or WPATH — that have mendaciously put children and young people's lives at risk.

Between WPATH and the Cass Report, decisive action needs to be taken — immediately — to ensure no more young people are harmed by the agenda pushed by some ideologically entrenched adults.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017334#Comment_122017334

"Misinformation spreads differently on social media than on legacy media such as television, radio, and newspapers. Mainstream news outlets tend to have robust safeguards in place to prevent and correct false claims, but several unique features of social media encourage viral content with low oversight. Rapid publication and peer-to-peer sharing allow ordinary users to distribute information quickly to large audiences, so misinformation can be policed only after the fact (if at all). “Echo chambers” bind and isolate online communities with similar views, which aids the spread of falsehoods and impedes the spread of factual corrections. This problem disproportionately affects individuals who consume content from conservative political sources."

In this case it's not conservative sources but trans ones.

Cass met many many people, including many trans groups, to get an overall picture of what's happening. She was being thorough.

As for papers not being used do you have a link to any of them? I'm going to go out on a limb and say the ideological reasons you mention are actually evidence based reasons, as in they were low quality studies which should be ignored.

gym_imposter

Noticeable how little coverage is being given by the Irish media to the Cass report

I guess so many of the media here were invested in it , they can't afford to comment

emo72

It got about 60 seconds on the BOC show this morning, conveniently put on at 1159 with the safety of the 12 news to cut it off. Even at that Brendan did his best to cut Kate O Connell off. Fantastic discussion.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017919#Comment_122017919

Also, the BBC has refused to publish anything on the WPATH files.

Robert McGrath

Anton Savage had a long interview with a doctor discussing it this morning

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018004#Comment_122018004

Savage is extremely woke so I assume the conversation was painful

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017705#Comment_122017705

Loretta/Stan in the Life of Brian was beautifully crafted comedy in 1979. Now it’s a scary ideology that is as embedded into society as religion was in 1950s Ireland.

I really hope that Cass Review and the fall out/backlash will lead us back to reality.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018004#Comment_122018004

It was Dr. Paul Moran. He's very good. He's warned previously about the planned "conversion therapy ban" legislation that the government (primarily, unsurprisingly, O'Gorman) have been talking about bringing in in Ireland, which would essentially mandate the "affirmation only" therapy that has been shown to be harmful and dangerous by the WPATH files and the Cass Review as the only possible response to childhood gender confusion, potentially (if it follows other similar legislation that has been attempted elsewhere) criminalising doctors, therapists and even parents who choose to follow a more evidence-based, careful path with their child's mental, physical and reproductive health.

That's something people should keep an eye out for down the track. Extremely dangerous legislation, and we're already in enough trouble with our "under the radar" gender recognition legislation.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018061#Comment_122018061

Much as people like to tout "new, progressive Ireland", this country came to women's and children's rights ultimately and in almost every case through shame and guilt at a dreadful and all too recent history.

My concern is that we end up being the same with this issue.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018044#Comment_122018044

No, it was very good actually. Dr. Moran is a consumate professional and has all of the evidence on his side. He was involved in the Cass Review himself, so there wasn't much that Savage (who I don't know, so no idea of his form) could push back on.

He did try to make some point about the "toxicity" of the debate around transgender issues, but Dr. Moran made it clear, as does the report, and as Dr. Cass herself has done in interviews since the report was published, that the toxicity that was referred to in the report was clinicians feeling unable to properly assess and treat children, or speak openly about issues with people's care, because the activist groups and their activist colleagues were always on standby to harass, bully and 'cancel' them. That's why many of the very first alarm bells were rung by whistleblowers.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018065#Comment_122018065

Bans on conversion therapy are about banning conversion therapy, not mandating an affirmative approach only at all as the only response to childhood gender confusion. Conversion therapy itself has been shown to be harmful and dangerous (hence the reason for banning it). It does follow similar legislation that hasn’t just been attempted, but has been enacted elsewhere including many countries in Europe and States in the US. The legislation doesn’t criminalise doctors or therapists for being doctors and therapists, and certainly it doesn’t criminalise parents who choose to follow a more evidence-based, careful path with their child’s mental, physical and reproductive health. It specifically targets practitioners of dangerous and harmful practices, be they doctors, therapists or just outright quacks. Fortunately it’s just not very common in Ireland in the first place:

https://www.thejournal.ie/conversion-therapy-ban-ireland-6098279-Jun2023/

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-56496423.amp

The gender recognition legislation you’re referring to wasn’t introduced ‘under the radar’ either, it’s because it was uncontroversial legislation that it didn’t get any attention in the media, but it was as far back as 2002 when the Judge in Lydia Foy’s action against the State called on Government to urgently review the matter. Only took them 13 years, hardly “under the radar” as has been suggested in some quarters:

Judgment was reserved for nearly two years until 9 July 2002 when Mr Justice Liam McKechnie rejected Lydia Foy's challenge, stating that Foy had been born male based on medical and scientific evidence and that accordingly the registration could not be changed. He did express concern about the position of transsexuals in Ireland, however, and called on the government to urgently review the matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018137#Comment_122018137

Did Savage try and criticise the Cass report?

MilkyToast

I'm also going to take the opportunity to point out that if those of us that have been organising against this for years had followed the advice to 'be kind', or had kept our heads down to fit in at middle-class dinner parties, the GIDS clinic would still be in operation, and guidance informed by people who frequent eunuch fetish sites (link not for the feint of heart) would have gone completely unchecked.

The same applies to women's sports, women's spaces, prisons, shelters, children's education and safeguarding, and more.

Being quiet, going along to get along, keeping your head down, etc. are actions that have consequences. So if you've been waiting for an opportunity to start speaking with your whole chest, this is it.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018137#Comment_122018137

I'm listening to it now. It's excellent.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018202#Comment_122018202

No he asked Dr Moran various things both about the report and about the situation in Ireland. He very much let him speak. You can listen back to it on Newstalk Goloud.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018237#Comment_122018237

Being quiet, going along to get along, keeping your head down, etc. are actions that have consequences. So if you've been waiting for an opportunity to start speaking with your whole chest, this is it.

And people who were previously being quiet just to get along, keeping their head down, etc were doing so because they were acutely aware that actions have consequences, and they’re now doing exactly as you suggest. There’s a concerted attempt to dismiss them merely as “activists” for doing so, but that’s par for the course with anyone who dares to question, let alone go so far as to rally against prevailing or dominant social norms.

I was no fan of the pussy hat parade either, but name calling is pure childish, and I happen to think it’s a good thing that we live in a society where people’s right to protest is a fundamental right in our Constitution. It’s how many of the changes in Irish society that I’ve seen in my lifetime have come about, precisely because the people affected, and the people who gave a shìt, wouldn’t just stay under the radar.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018358#Comment_122018358

No, it was the same under the Catholic Church i.e. pressure to conform and not to be considered a heretic to society.

It's the same kind of pressure that people have been forced to push back against — and yet again, it's women and children who have been disproportionately and needlessly harmed as a result, albeit in a different way. But as the Cass Report shows, harmful nonetheless.

And just as with the Catholic Church, when any negative report comes out, you find a tiny but vocal minority of its supporters trying to downplay or minimize or outright lie about what the report contains, all to save face and not to deal with the actual consequences of the report.

It's about time that some people opened their eyes to these reports and not attempt to water them down, misrepresent them, or deliberately lie about them.

The more that kind of casuistry goes on, the more children that will be harmed at the altar of a handful of ideological extremists.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018434#Comment_122018434

I think you intended to say there ‘harm nonetheless’?

But you’re right though, and the decline in the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland was due largely to a small number of people who at the time were dismissed as activists and indeed heretics of established doctrine as the necessary basis for social order, that without it there could only be social decay and the people would engage in immoral behaviour and cause anarchy and harm to children and the family and all the rest of it.

And yet none of that has actually happened, and it’s because people enjoy greater freedom to be able to be themselves and express themselves and they’re not actually causing any harm to others as was predicted by the doom-mongers who benefited from the dominance of the Catholic Church who, without the influence of the Catholic Church, they no longer had the ability to humiliate other people who couldn’t behave as though they agreed with the dominant ideology, into submission.

Btw in case it wasn’t already obvious - I wouldn’t recommend anyone put much stock in the Cass Review, it’s ONE review, of many, specifically tailored for policy making purposes in the UK, whether it be within Government or within the NHS. The HSE here have said it will be reviewed, about as non-committal as it gets, so I wouldn’t recommend anyone be getting too bent out of shape about it either, or, on the other hand - elevating the review beyond a status it doesn’t deserve given that it IS only one of many reviews or reports, that hasn’t actually brought anything new to the table or suggested anything that wasn’t known about or well-understood or had already been discussed previously.

Still useful if I run out of bog roll though, long as it’s not printed on glossy paper 😳

MilkyToast

You don't have to take my word for the conversion therapy bans and their purpose by the way; many trans activists are currently on Twitter howling about how the Cass Review is "conversion therapy" specifically because it promotes a therapeutic and careful approach to children expressing gender confusion, instead of immediate affirmation and drugs. See for yourself.

The real conversion therapy is boys and girls being sent down a transition pathway when they would have otherwise ended up perfectly happy same-sex attracted adults.

Dennis Kavanaugh, a lawyer and director of the Gay Men's Network lays it out pretty well in this thread:

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1778558819364188398

And Ireland is sort of infamous for having allowed activists to privately lobby politicians to get extreme legislation passed "under the radar" while the country was consumed with hashing out the gay marriage issue. It's a point of pride for many Irish TRAs and a point of envy for TRAs abroad.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-rights-pass-under-radar-smlwqsc3s#Echobox=1575797412

Here's how it went down:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/02/25/from-medical-assessment-to-affirmation-legal-gender-self-declaration-in-ireland/

Here's a few excerpts from a document put together by Dentons, a legal firm that was hired by trans activists to advise them on how best to get transition for children and teenagers:

In a since-deleted video, Irish TRA Phillipa Ryder said of self id law in Ireland (that is, law that allows anyone to sign a declaration and change their legal sex with no further requirements): "There was such publicity around the whole marriage equality thing that.. we snuck it in the back door"

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018525#Comment_122018525

Still useful if I run out of bog roll though, long as it’s not printed on glossy paper 😳

This is your response to serious medical research by a paediatrician on the dangers that early transition poses to children.

It beggars belief.

MilkyToast

Thoroughly enjoying the 'we knew all of this all along' angle on the Cass review.

No. Many people did not know all of this already. And when they were confronted with it by someone who did, they generally dismissed that person as a lunatic because in their mind there was no way that something so heinous as harm against children by people who ought to be helping them could go on and not be blasted in every single media outlet. Because when women who would have reported on these stories were sidelined and pushed out of the publications they worked for, they weren't reporting that, either.

But now? Now they'll know. And they'll know who else knew, and what they did about it.

Edit: I should add that many people who have gone along to get along, or even made the right noises to stay out of trouble, will just say nothing, fall into quiet amnesia, and eventually pretend they were always on the "sure wasn't that always dreadful" side of things. Which… fine. As long as the harms stop.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018548#Comment_122018548

Jack is a true believer who thinks he can convincingly pose as an impartial observer.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018575#Comment_122018575

What I'd like to know is how many reports do they need before they'll actually change their mind? Clearly they've said 1 isn't enough so how many is needed? How many more children need to be harmed in the meantime?

Ultimately I don't believe any number of reports would change their mind. It's ideologically-driven, and no amount of evidence can change that. It's no different to trying to show all the evidence to a flat Earther. In the end, it is an utter waste of time. Instead, you receive a cacophony of denialism and outright dismissals.

At the very, very least, people would come to a compromise position: let's halt the "gender affirming" model until we can establish to what degree the harm is done, if at all". But no, so many activists want to continue the harm in the meantime.

Even protests are now being planned.

Let's be clear: protests in favour of causing children irreversible harm.

https://twitter.com/PeterTatchell/status/1779171198783381576

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018548#Comment_122018548

Whatever you may or may not think of the report, does it really beg for your belief that it’s possible there are people who think it’s of no greater value, importance, interest or significance than wiping their arse with it?

Reeeeally? Such a stanch advocate of free speech as yourself, and you expect anyone to believe that you haven’t considered the possibility of others having a diametrically opposite perspective than your own?

That’s what I find difficult to believe 🤨

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018659#Comment_122018659

Let me ask a direct question — is it your position that no number of medical research / reports conducted into this matter will change your mind?

You have rejected the Cass Report. What would you be willing to accept to change your mind?

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018589#Comment_122018589

You never change the true believer's mind. Doesn't matter what it is they're a believer of.

Don't let it frustrate you. The only point to interacting with a true believer online is if you think your interactions with them can change or sway the minds of people reading the interaction by drawing out the ridiculousness of their arguments. Although often it gets to the point that that is unnecessary because they mange it all on their own. Otherwise your time is better spent writing to representatives, using your skills to help women's rights groups that are battling this, or drinking lovely tea.

As for Peter "not all sex with children is unwanted, abusive and harmful" Tatchell - he, like many TRAs I suspect, is in for a shock.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018547#Comment_122018547

You don't have to take my word for the conversion therapy bans…

It seems rude not to, but then you’re putting forward the opinions of other people which are not your words, but theirs, and I don’t think it rude that anyone is under no such obligation to those people, particularly when they are demonstrating a rather obvious bias either against or towards a particular position.

It’s why I made the comment earlier about Dr. Cass’s dismissal of evidence which didn’t support her opinion, with ne’er so much as a hint of tongue-in-cheek irony.