Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former · 18-04-2024 03:57PM

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clsmooth · 18-04-2024 05:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035045#Comment_122035045

I agree, it’s gas to see the hoops some posters will jump through. You’d think Jean Kleyn was the South African Dupont on here sometimes. He’s a decent player and hopefully he manages to get back from his eye issue which sounds concerning to me. Even now, I don’t think Farrell would be starting him ahead of Ryan, McCarthy and Beirne. There’s an argument that he’d be vying with Iain Henderson as a squad depth player given Henderson’s recent form.

But Jean Kleyn won a World Cup I hear some say. So did Marvin Orie. I wouldn’t be picking him for Ireland either.

Clo-Clo · 18-04-2024 06:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034903#Comment_122034903

You should read the post. You said Ireland shouldn't care about the 6 nation results in the quest to win a WC, without the 6 nations you don't have to worry about a WC

Why should we pick players in other countries when we have the best players in Ireland?

The plan you seem to have come up is force players to leave Ireland and go to UK/France. Then when they are playing in another country select those players. Why not keep them in Ireland and select them playing for the provinces?

By forcing them to leave Ireland you are making the provinces weaker, the teams they are playing stronger. Plus you are making Ireland weaker because they will not be available outside of the international windows

Every union is jealous of the setup Ireland has and you want to throw it away, saying you wouldn't mind losing 6 nation games. Which pays for rugby in Ireland. What exactly is the point of all of this? just to make Leinster players move(the list of players you gave all happened to play for Leinster)

Clo-Clo · 18-04-2024 06:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035045#Comment_122035045

Simple fact is if Kleyn was still available for Ireland he wouldn't be selected for Ireland

Clo-Clo · 18-04-2024 06:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034792#Comment_122034792

He was available for Ireland for 4 years and never made a squad.

If he was available now, he still wouldn't be selected.

He had a decent season last year, before that when he came up against the top clubs he never commanded the position. Even last year has he ever made a big difference in a game v Leinster? even when playing against the URC team

Others have pointed out the minutes he played in WC, it is great for him and I wish him well for his WC win and hope he is back playing soon. Is he a loss to Ireland? no IMO

phog · 18-04-2024 06:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035621#Comment_122035621

Yes that's probably true

He's another simple fact, we exited the RWC at the QF again, SA won two RWCs in a row.

Here's another simple fact, Kleyn played in the final too, despite a few "experts" here telling us all he wouldn't make the squad.

Former Former Former · 18-04-2024 06:52PM

A player not good enough for Ireland ends up playing for another Tier 1 country.

Only on boards.ie could it be a bad thing that we have too many good players.

Rugbyf565 · 18-04-2024 06:59PM

let’s just all agree to disagree and cheer on the success of each others provinces!

Clo-Clo · 18-04-2024 07:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035661#Comment_122035661

and?

He isn't an Irish player, he played for SA and good for him. As you admit he wouldn't even get selected if he was available now so why is he even brought up?

Foxtrol · 18-04-2024 07:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034625#Comment_122034625

So you're just using that most annoying politician tactic:

Stoke up flames of resentment about a huge problem that you claim to exist - Huge inequity between the provinces where they'll never ever be able to catch Leinster unless something is done by the IRFU
Say you favour a magical solution, where the huge problem is solved but it involves no one taking any significant pain - the playing field needs to leveled but not in a way that drags back Leinster
Refuse to propose your own magical solution - Claim in your post other solutions are needed but have only giving us the gem of sharing Barrett's 6 month salary across 3 provinces
Get annoyed when those in power do not have the magical solution that resolves the issue - we haven't gotten to this part yet but I presume we'll see it post the CC review process

phog · 18-04-2024 07:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035732#Comment_122035732

I didn't bring him up at all, at all, so why ask me.

I'm just commenting on the posters who told us that wouldn't play for SA now down playing his actual game time, more so, his game time in the final. As if subs time in any game should be discounted.

Former Former Former · 18-04-2024 07:17PM

again, a bizarre scenario.

We have more players than we can use and people hate the national coach and team for it

clsmooth · 18-04-2024 07:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035661#Comment_122035661

Good example of outcome bias. SA selected Kleyn as 4th choice lock. They won the World Cup therefore Ireland should have selected Kleyn.

Also by the same token Ireland should travel to the next tournament with one hooker and a flanker/hooker hybrid (VDF can do that job) and start a 10 who can’t kick. We should also start with a 7-1 split. Here’s a simple fact, we exited the RWC at the QF again, SA won two RWCs in a row. Q.E.D.

aloooof · 18-04-2024 07:26PM

Mod: Can we leave the Kleyn talk, it's been done to death. There's a dedicated Kleyn NIQ thread if people want to discuss it further.

aloooof · 18-04-2024 07:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035752#Comment_122035752

Aside from the "annoying politician tactic, flames of resentment, magical solution, the gem of…" digs, you keep saying things like "claim to exist".

It's objectively true to point out the Central Contracts will be the most imbalanced they've ever been, by an order or magnitude, come next season. That's not a claim. It's a fact.

Foxtrol · 18-04-2024 08:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035861#Comment_122035861

You continue to say that it is a huge problem and that you want it changed but at the same time you claim that you don't want Leinster 'dragged back'.

That is absolutely impossible and at this stage you know it full well by the fact you aren't even able to suggest one solution that would even scratch the surface of a huge inequality.

Come on, just be honest. Even if you want there to be, in the real world there isnt a magical solution that can cover you talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Dubinusa · 18-04-2024 08:19PM

Munster apparently signing Brownlee and one of our props. Rumors of Boyle? There ye go! A future international prop and a very good, imo, inside center! Factor in Loughman and Jager, not to mention Hadden and Foxe and of course Beirne! That's quite a haul with 4 really young options on the way. Not sure if there's CC contracts in there.

Ulster signing Max and Ed Byrne. Byrne signing probably means that O'Sullivan is out. I think Richie Murphy will ply some lads away into the academy.

If we're just talking CC's, I have no clue as to what the answer is. Short of shredding Leinster, that is.

aloooof · 18-04-2024 08:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035950#Comment_122035950

Leinster are on course to win both competitions this season. They are due to be stronger next season.

Imo, even without Jordie Barrett and Snyman, I'd expect Leinster to be favourites for both competitions next season.

If the funds used for those players, which is only freed up next season due to the change in Central Contracts isn't "dragging them back" this season, there's no reason to think it'd "drag them back" next season.

Straight question. Do you think the imbalance in the Central Contracts is a potential issue for the IRFU that could have further ramifications?

Foxtrol · 18-04-2024 08:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036023#Comment_122036023

If the gulf is so wide as you claim then how much does the salary of 1.5 NIQs close the gap when it is spread across 3 other provinces? 0.5 of an NIQ for each province does sweet f all if Leinster are miles ahead.

I'll happily answer your questions but I'm not letting you move the goal posts until you either provide a credible low impact solution or accept that to move the needle it is going to damage Leinster.

50HX · 18-04-2024 10:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036003#Comment_122036003

Can you clarify what you mean by its quite a haul?? Is it leinster players moving to munster?

aloooof · 18-04-2024 10:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036173#Comment_122036173

I haven't moved any goalposts.

The current ratio of CC for Leinster:Rest is 7:5. Next season it wil be 10:3. That's objectively true. I don't think anyone would claim Leinster are "damaged" currently with the current distribution.

My point is, I think it's possible to acknowledge there's a potential, growing problem while ackowledging it's a difficult problem to solve, and not knowing what the solution is.

I've been very careful in my posts to do all of that. I've also been very careful to praise Leinster and acknowledge that the other provinces need to do better elsewhere.

But that still doesn't mean the above isn't a potential problem.

None of what I've said is "stoking up flames" or "favouring magical solutions" or anything like that.

Dubinusa · 18-04-2024 10:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036438#Comment_122036438

Yep. It's a good haul, if true. Boyle would instantly be in the 23. Brownlee will probably have to move position.

fitz · 18-04-2024 11:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036023#Comment_122036023

Imbalance in central contracts isn't the problem, it's a symptom. The real problem is player development is not where it should be in the other three provinces. Some of that is on the IRFU, some of it is demographic, but a lot of it is to do with local leadership and how they've invested. Throwing more money at the problem isn't necessarily going to help if the people spending it aren't spending in the right areas.

And is it worse than it's ever been? When the Ireland team was dominated by Munster, was the imbalance much better than it is now? I genuinely don't know, but my sense is that the distribution was probably similarly skewed then, no?

The takeaway for me is - saying it's unfair that Leinster get more headroom in their budget because of central contracts is too dismissive of the fact that they've succeeded in developing players that attract those contracts. If there's something to be done, it's to focus investment on the barriers to the other provinces doing the same. That's investment the IRFU should be making, but it shouldn't come out of Leinster's earned budget, imo.

awec · 18-04-2024 11:41PM

Anyone with an interest in this topic should listen to the latest episode of The Counter Ruck (the Irish Times rugby podcast).

D'Arcy is the guest on it, he was on a central deal himself, he knows exactly how it all works. His points are very interesting.

https://www.irishtimes.com/podcasts/the-counter-ruck/the-counter-ruck-is-irelands-central-contract-system-broken/

You would nearly think that D'Arcy reads boards. 😉

aloooof · 18-04-2024 11:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036712#Comment_122036712

When the Ireland team was dominated by Munster, was the imbalance much better than it is now? I genuinely don't know, but my sense is that the distribution was probably similarly skewed then, no?

I've been searching for sources for this exact data, and it's incredibly difficult to come by (as compared to nowadays). But it seems to be agreed that there were 25-30 central contracts in the 00's.

If you look at the 2003 and 2007 Rugby World Cup squads - imperfect, but likely a reasonable analog; squads of 30, and we had 2-3 overseas players - yes Munster had the highest number of players but the distribution is nothing like it is now.

And I think that makes sense; while Munster dominated the starting pack and half-backs, they never dominated the full 22 in the way Leinster dominate the 23 now. Leinster had 16 players in the 23 for the first game of the 6 Nations. I'm not sure Munster were ever that dominant.

Using the RWC squads, and distributions in the 22's at the time, it seems to suggest Munster, at some point likely had an imbalance similar to this season's (or maybe slightly less).

But it doesn't look like it was ever close to it being 3x the number of the other provinces combined.

So it's not something that's cyclical. The distribution from next season seems to be a huge outlier.

phog · 18-04-2024 11:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036747#Comment_122036747

But it seems to be agreed that there were 25-30 central contracts in the 00's.

That's one of the issues, the IRFU have reduced the number of contracts available, that in itself needs to be reviewed.

aloooof · 18-04-2024 11:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036712#Comment_122036712

To add, fwiw, here's what I found. Sources are an Independent.ie article, threads on here from the time and 2003,2007 are the RWC squads, as mentoned.

So I suspect imperfect but indicative:

50HX · 19-04-2024 06:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036577#Comment_122036577

I see what you are saying but there is about as much logic in saying that beirne & jager went from leinster to munster as there is in sean cronin from munster to leinster

jacothelad · 19-04-2024 08:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029875#Comment_122029875

Ulster finished 2nd to Leinster in the normal table in 19 / 20, 2nd in 20 / 21, 2nd in 21 / 22 and 2nd in 22 / 23. Other teams would like that level of failure. I assume there is prize money for doing so. They are playing like crap this year without doubt.

It's probably not any individual player's fault that they don't have or have not developed the individual talent of their counterpart in Leinster. That is down to genetics, coaching, access to playing and having an interest from an early exposure to the game. There definitely was a seismic collapse when Payne and Peel left. There was a change in the relationship between the head coach and the players which was negative. He changed the playing style in a rather wasteful way and it's hard to get back to the status quo once that occurs.

There are systemic failures in rugby in Ulster without quibble. (The failure on here appears to be that they aren't as good as Leinster.) Without doubt, they are at a low point in the cycle. It is more due to societal divisions in N.I.. Half the population have no interest at all in rugby for well known historical reasons. That half don't play it at school. If you don't do that you won't develop an interest particularly when there are pressures not to do so, however subtle. It's still a 'them' and 'us' story sadly.

In the 'other' half of the population, a huge % don't give a flying Boris for rugby never did, never will and hardly knows it exists. Demographic changes as a consequence of recent history has led to many of those State schools that once played the game becoming too small in pupil numbers to field teams or in fact to simply being shut down. The Ulster branch can't suddenly magic up thousands of kids to play the game. Many of the clubs that were central to the great Ulster sides of the 80's and 90's and which also provided large numbers of Ireland starters have all but disappeared. Sides like North of Ireland, Collegians, Bangor, Ards, CIYMS and others have either gone are are much diminished.

Just like in Dublin now, a large proportion of players for Ulster would have attended private boarding schools. For the pursuance of a perverted ideology, one political party, when they ran the education portfolio, basically in effect if not in law, banned private education. It only exists in tiny pockets. Many Grammar Schools that were the bastion of rugby are gone. They couldn't survive financially. If you are an NI parent who wishes private education for your child within the UK you have little choice but to send the kids to England or Scotland. I now live in a fairly remote part of Scotland near Gordonstoun School. My friend here sends his children there. They are just back from the Hong Kong Sevens with the school. There are quite a surprising number of N.I. children there. It's not even the most expensive at £10,000 per term. Fettes College in Edinburgh is £36,945 per year. Again, quite a surprising number of N.I. children attend. It is easy to ignore the persistent exodus of a part of the population over the last 25 years or so. If you were a parent of an 18-year-old school-leaver in N.I. and the son or daughter goes to University in G.B. you know they aren't coming back.

I have also believed for a long time that the committee system in Ulster is helping the failure to thrive as we might expect. Additionally, the Academy has failed year-on-year to further the talents of seemingly promising players.

The £900,000 hit over the La Rochelle debacle was almost the straw that broke Ulster's back.

jacothelad · 19-04-2024 08:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030207#Comment_122030207

I would get the IRFU to appoint the coaches to the academies. I have met and observed and actually personally knew quite a few of those at Ulster over the years. Some were not what was needed…….being polite. Jobs for the boys springs to mind. A new broom……etc

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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