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Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Good points. And it's something I've been wondering about too. Why have so few filling stations installed chargers? At a 25km radius of my house there are approximately 15 filling stations. Only one has chargers, the Applegreen at Coynes Cross. At the same time there are about 20 chargers in the same radius. Most are AC chargers and the fastest are 50kW. Apart from the Applegreen. There's a market there for fast chargers >50kW, but nada. In fact there are about three or four sites "coming soon" in the area, but again 50kW or less. And they've been "coming soon" for months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    all tehy have to do is make it part of teh standard for filling stations , ie, for every multi fuel pump installed, 1 ev point has to be installed. its not hard, and is going to have to happen at some time, likley sooner rather then later.

    bigget issue i have atm is the multiple diffrent complanies and seperat apps needed, but, thats a diffrent rant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    They put 3 ev chargers in the extremely busy 24 hour garage 800m from my home.

    There are 8 petrol/ diesel pumps, kero/ green diesel pump,2 car washes,a car valeting service,a dog washing machine, washers and driers even an egg vending machine.

    There is a minimart inside and a deli with a seating area.4 coffee machines and a tea making facility.

    In the last 6 months I've seen 2 cars charging there and I would be there most days and pass it every day.

    This is around 40kms from Dublin City centre so not out in the sticks somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    That's not actually unusual for EV chargers. Unless they're on a major route just off a motorway, they tend to be used infrequently and very seldom have all chargers used. Also can depend on what output they have. Somebody topping up on a longer journey, won't want to use 22kW units and even 50kW would be relatively slow.

    You'd want to be sitting outside all day to get a better picture of their use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Also if we knew where it was, it could be checked on any of the myriad apps to see real time usage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    How much does it cost to charge at them? To get people to transition to BEVs the cost benefits have to filter through to people who can't charge at home. No one is going to sit for 20 or 30 minutes while paying the same as they would for diesel or petrol which can be filled in <5 minutes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    It doesn't matter how much it costs, the Government want to force people into cars they don't want. And they make a fortune on all the tax they will rake in on these expensive cars in the process but the Havana effect will become reality, older and older cars unless the Government take the Ultimate step of banning all ICEs making them uninsurable and untaxable and closing all petrol stations. Eamon Ryan would do it tomorrow if he had the power and he wouldn't care about the consequence, sure the Earth is suffering the most, who cares about how people have to get around, least of all Ryan.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's definitely a concern I have, in the medium term we're look a high degree of inequity between people who can charge at home versus those who by necessity have to regular charge in public.

    The naysayers will complain that subsidisation of public charging rollouts is a gift to private motorists, for me it's more of field levelling exercise to ensure that privileged private driveway owners don't end up paying a fraction of the price compared to people who live in multi-unit dwellings (which have better levels of land-use). It's a similar problem to domestic solar installations.

    I don't want to see a society where the people who can least afford to pay end up having the highest costs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    It's certainly an issue that has to be addressed. Will be interesting to see how the upcoming grant scheme for those affected is structured. It's a complex issue because of the many different ways these multi-unit dwellings are constructed and laid out.

    Even the simple question of who owns the shared spaces like parking and other open areas has to be taken into account in how any solution is structured. And then who pays and how (and how much) for the charging facilities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    liquid fule is only going to get more expensive, , estimated of over €3 a liter by 2030, some more, some less.

    electricity is due and expected to start dropping.

    in the long run, evs will cost the same to run as an ice, thats the stance from the government ( really its the civil service, but most people get that confused. )



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    6 years is too long to wait for BEVs to get cheaper to run than ICE. The wholesale price of electricity has dropped significantly yet the prices of public charging hasn't , if we want people to move to BEV then we have to stop screwing people who can't charge at home.

    A large portion of drivers don't have off street parking so won't buy BEV, we need to get these people out of ICE and the only way to do that is to get affordable public chargers.

    There is no point in installing loads of chargers which no one will use as they cost too much and/or take too long to charge. There is an ESB eCars 22kW charger near me charging 56c/kWh. Apple Green have 2 places near me and it's 68c at both even though 1 is 120kW and the other is 180kW. The commercial electricity rate is 23c/kWh for low users, so charging stations should be able to get it even cheaper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Just had a look at the EasyGo abridged accounts for 2022 (2023 haven't been filed yet) and they were still in a loss making position then (accumulated losses of over a million). Will be interesting to see if that changes in 2023. They invested over a million in chargers that year and their borrowings seem to come from the parent company in the UK.

    TL:DR These guys aren't making a profit yet. I suspect prices will stay as they are until they do. Which could be this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    2022 had very high wholesale electricity prices overall so that's no surprise. They invested 1m in charging infrastructure and accumulated losses of 1m suggests they would have broken even otherwise and were prioritising expansion of the network over dividends for investors. They were in contract with a few councils to provide chargers as well so that would have made the investment very cost beneficial

    It's likely 2023 was a profitable year for them as the price we paid stayed high but the wholesale prices dropped



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Except they use 10% straight line depreciation on their chargers, so the P&L cost for one year would only be about 100k. The accumulated losses were through more than one year, 2022 was ~580k. Previous year(s) 600k.

    Edit: Just to note that abridged accounts filed with the companies office don't include a P&L. You have to work stuff out from the balance sheet and notes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    i think you missed the point, or i wasnt clear.

    evs will cost the same to have and run as a liquid fuled car in 2030, it wont be any cheaper, but, it will be likley the only option.
    its either going to be a yearly nct bill based off millage to recoup lost tax, or, a straight out lump tax (like €1000) on them.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog




  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ColemanY2K


    the esb have recently changed the goal posts whereby they've told service station owners that they cannot have an increase in their mic when installing chargers. this will have a limiting factor on fast and HP charger rollout going forward.

    🌞 7.79kWp PV System. Comprised of 4.92kWp Tilting Ground Mount + 2.87kWp @ 27°, azimuth 180°, West Waterford 🌞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    56c/kWh for AC charging is a joke. It should be significantly cheaper and should also have a night rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I agree. But at least it's still cheaper than the UK at 56p for up to 50kWh and 81p for above that on average.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    It's a shopping centre so no overnight parking allowed and there is a lot of anti social behaviour around my area so I doubt many people would leave their cars overnight even if they could.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    The UK shouldn't be a barometer for anything 🤷😊😊😊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭k123456


    Is there a list online of rapid charger prices per KWH, please, I have checked and cant find one

    Interested in those without a subscription , as my use will be occasional



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Might be worth looking at Freshmile so. Doesn't cover all the rapid charging networks, but ESB eCars for one anyway. It works on a PAYG basis (minimum top up is €50 I think) and the costs are 0.30c/min + .30c kWh. By my calculations, this means you'll be getting cheaper rates so long as you don't use anything slower than 80kW. And be careful to stop charging once the charge curve goes below that point.

    Edit: Also covers Ionity, but the price is nuts €0.85/kWh.

    So if using it I'd stick to 100-200kW chargers. Those are ones that I've confirmed work on the 30/30 pricing model.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Don't agree. The state shouldn't do business. The state is a very poor entrepreneur.

    The state is in no way an SME on charging network operation and maintenance. It has no incentive to please the customers or expand its operations. I think the story with ESB so far confirms that.

    The state should let others (the private sector) to do business by correctly legislating and regulating. That's what's lacking. Grants are OK but deregulation as well creating a proper charging market would be better. And then mandating charger standards and mandatory charging installations at specific locations (urban areas especially).



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    It's not much about the planet than about the air quality. This in the public interest and of a huge importance - for the public good. Air quality is a huge issue in Ireland with the highest diesel penetration. Diesel is terribly toxic for humans. The worst disaster of the Irish gov that it was pushing it back in the day!

    You would have thought they'd try to atone themselves and fix it this time with EVs. Making sure the transition is fast and for everyone, not just the early adopters & rich.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    This seems a bit contradictory. On the one hand you say that the state is a very poor entrepreneur and the on the other that the state should dictate to entrepreneurs what their business should do, whether profitable or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Not at all.

    The State MUST regulate and legislate. It's its function. But not to do business, that's not the state's objective (and it's bad at it anyway).

    Legislating to achieve policy objectives isn't "dictating", it's what the state is for.

    I think we can agree we don't want absolute deregulation ("free market"). The state has to regulate the business in one way or another - ban public smoking, mandate child car seats, ban asbestos, mandate speed limits, mandate safety features in cars etc etc. EVs and charging network are no different, especially if the objective is to disrupt the status quo and introduce a new tech.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    All your examples are of the state legislating for safety and are across the board. Legislating to force businesses to take on uneconomic activity is not the same thing. In fact there are examples of the state stepping in to cover areas where businesses have decided they are uneconomic or high risk. Microfinance Ireland provides small business loans where the main banks have refused due to the risk profile and likely no or poor return. The school bus system is another example.

    So following those models, the state should probably subsidise such infrastructure if they are proven to be uneconomic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    If the state shouldn't do business then we'd have no public transport at all. It's not profitable across the board.

    Which would leave vast swades of our population immobile. That americanised thinking isn't the country I want to live in.

    Throwing the baby out with the bathwater comes to mind. Because the state doesn't get stuff right every time ergo it's bad. How about when businesses don't do it right ? The notion they go to the wall everytime if they get it wrong has been proven to be incorrect. Their isn't a real market in all it's senses for everything in life. There's degree of socialisation and businesses have been known to take advantage of this in negative and positive ways. Yet people herald privatisation always as a positive... begs belief really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Public transport is a public service. That's completely different. Most would agree the state should run it.

    The state, however, doesn't run petrol stations, does it? Can you imagine it would? Would be a disaster. Neither should the state run charging network, petrol station network equivalent in the 21st century.

    Privatisation isn't a panacea but neither is state ownership. We need a balance closer to the free market and the state certainly shouldn't be an entrepreneur, it's been shown to be disastrous in Ireland and elsewhere time and time again - it doesn't work, the incentives simply aren't there.

    Now, if you look at Norway, the fast charging network is almost exclusively run by private companies (Tesla, E.On, Kople, Fastned, Recharge, Circle K, Shell, Esso, Eviny, Ionity). It's been tested and it works. Ditto, the Netherlands.

    The state needs to create rules and enforce them, create incentives and let the private sector do it. There's no "Irish way" needed. No need to reinvent the wheel.

    Edit: I'm also not a fan of the US approach, that's another extreme, just for the record 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Interesting you say governments aren't entrepreneurial. And then cite Norway one of the most entrepreneurial countries on earth with how they do things with state resources access to them and brining back ownership of them.So much so that they've got an investment fund that's the envy of nations. Successive governments have pursued same policies for decades.

    Btw I'm not talking about ev networks I'm talking about how the free market is being poised versus government led. Which you indicate is always bad. Not true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    The issue here is this is a 'chicken and the egg' problem... Which comes first, the new market of EVs so private business can cater for public charging demand? Or the charging network so the demand for EVs increases?

    The government (and ESB) looked at this problem and rightly so thought that the charging network needed to be in place to give some reassurance to folks who want to purchase an EV.

    If left to private business, with no charging network would be profitable for many years (and a bigger risk if the EV market didn't take off), no charging network would have been built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    There's no point in building infrastructure if it doesn't deliver the benefit of BEV ownership to people. The wholesale cost of electricity has dropped significantly but none of the charging providers have dropped their prices, if petrol stations did the same it would be all over the news.

    95% of BEVs are charged at home because for a large portion of the population there is no benefit to owning a BEV. Even the grants for Multi Unit Developments to install charging infrastructure are useless as the current options are no cheaper than the public chargers. What are the odds that any of the charging hubs that we are supposed to be getting for people with no access to charge at home will also be expensive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    Again, I'll come back to my point, there wouldn't be many people buying BEVs if the charging infrastructure outside the home wasn't in place.

    I know you say 95% of charging happens at home, and that is correct, but people wouldn't buy a BEV if they didn't think they could do a long trip with them. And to get over this hurdle, the government and ESB stepped in to fill this gap.

    Also, you answered your own question. 95% of charging is done at home, so these fast charging sites need to make their money back from the remaining 5%. Very difficult to do on expensive infrastructure. And if 95% of your charging happens at home, why complain about the remaining 5% which you'll need to pay at a higher rate?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Home charging is 90% according to the SEAI from CSO data. But yes, you're correct and public charging prices will only come down when there are enough BEVs on the road to make that possible. I've made this point a few times on this forum and even went to the trouble of getting EasyGo's accounts from the companies office to prove it.

    Having said that, the best way to get more BEVs on the road and potentially lower prices is to push money into the infrastructure and remove that excuse from the litany that people trot out to explain their decision to keep buying ICE cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    @D_D "…95% of charging is done at home, so these fast charging sites need to make their money back from the remaining 5%. Very difficult to do on expensive infrastructure."

    But do the likes of Ecars have to make their money back, when a very high percentage of their funding is grants from the state?

    @prawnsambo "But yes, you're correct and public charging prices will only come down when there are enough BEVs on the road to make that possible."

    At the current prices that are being charged for DC fast charging there isn't going to be an increase in BEV sales, which are currently declining.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    Give over, Ireland is the most deforested land in continental Europe yet we feel the right to criticize Brazil for their destruction of rainforest ?

    Ireland has less tress than Snowdonia in Wales for F1ck sake, so much emphasis on cars but nothing about replanting real forest.

    If we were to replant our hardwood forest we could effectively remove the effects of hundreds of thousands of ICE cars and probably much more.

    Why is there no incentive or talk to move people from big cars with 1 driver of family cars to 1 driver transport such as motor bikes or scooters which offer much better fuel economy and far less congestion ? why should we offer grants for expensive very heavy and often larger crossover type electric cars vs much more fuel efficient less traffic clogging 2 wheel transport ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    Lol you're forgetting many of us EV owners have ICE car at home and don't give a f1ck about the EV infrastructure because it's mostly sh1t anyway.

    I wouldn't have a BEV if we didn't have the ICE at home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    @D_D "…95% of charging is done at home, so these fast charging sites need to make their money back from the remaining 5%. Very difficult to do on expensive infrastructure."

    A lot of EV owners have ICE as 2nd car.

    @prawnsambo "But yes, you're correct and public charging prices will only come down when there are enough BEVs on the road to make that possible."

    Wishful thinking lol.

    At the current prices that are being charged for DC fast charging there isn't going to be an increase in BEV sales, which are currently declining.

    Yes, if the tech is good enough people will buy it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The reason why 90% or 95% of charging is done at home is because people who don't have off street parking aren't buying BEVs as they get no benefit from owning one, they are actually inconvenienced as they are paying the same as ICE while it takes longer to refill. If we want to increase BEV ownership we have to make it work for people who can't charge at home and currently with the price of charging and the lack of infrastructure it's not viable. Even if more infrastructure is built if it's not cost competitive, like the current options for MUDs, then people still won't buy BEVs. Petrol stations make feck all profit from the fuel, how come electricity stations have to make huge profits when they cost roughly the same? If they dropped the prices they'd get more customers and make their profits through scale rather than gouging.

    Our forests where cleared in the 19th century so we can't be blamed for being defrosted when it was done long before people knew the value of forests. We now know the issues with cutting down forests.

    If we replanted out forests then other countries would destroy their nature to produce what we've stopped producing, as much as people talk about people eating less meat it's not going to happen and as poor countries develop they start consuming more meat. Is it better to have us producing in an fairly efficient way on land that's been cleared for centuries, lots of out land isn't suitable for tillage, vs destroying virgin forests?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    It's chicken and egg I suppose. If you look at countries like Norway who've had phenomenal uptake of BEVs, they've used a combination of supports to achieve this. But then again, they can afford it. A middle ground approach will take longer, but it probably starts with a combination of more chargers, greater range and falling cost of entry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Petrol stations make feck all profit from the fuel, how come electricity stations have to make huge profits when they cost roughly the same?

    You've pretty much answered that question yourself. If only 10% of charging is done on public charging networks and the EV fleet is only a fraction of the ICE fleet, there isn't the scale in public charging to make it profitable without high margins.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    My comment was in response to @listermint stating that the government and ESB shouldn't be in the business of EV charging. If eCars are doing it not to make a profit, how would a private business model do it out of the kindness of their hearts?



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    Ok, that's your approach to it. We're a single car household which is a BEV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    I would be of the opinion that if you can't charge at home, then don't buy an EV until that problem has been solved. And I can bet you there are a lot of folks looking at this issue and trying to come up with solutions.

    Also, your comparison to petrol pumps not making a profit. For petrol stations, the infrastructure is well established and already in place. This is not the case for the EV charging infrastructure which needs a lot of funding to ramp up to scale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭D_D


    Fully agree with this, Norway's government understood that the only way to get people into EVs was under the mantra "if you build it, they will come". So public funding was used to build the charging infrastructure which gave people confidence when purchasing an EV.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    ireland can afford this too, very little diffrence in the budgets of each country, similar poulation density, no reason we cant afford it.



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