Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010394#Comment_122010394

We will fairly soon, because the government keeps allowing data centres to be built and won't build nuclear power plants to elinate CO2 from energy generation. It's only a few hundred million in fines, nothing to worry about, the 1.652 million actual taxpayers can all just be squeezed for another €180 each, no biggie.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010722#Comment_122010722

Much better to spend the €21 million (the current AFIR tender) on charging infrastructure here than to spend that €21 million on carbon offsetting so that the more forward-looking EU countries can build infrastructure in their country.

More EVs here than in Croatia improves the air quality of streets I use daily instead of the ones I might use every 5 years when I go on a holiday.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010267#Comment_122010267

None of this is relevant to the actual budget of the country, the money used to run the country year on year. Norway's budget is 129 billion a year, Ireland's 112 billion. We have the money to do it; there's no reason not to do it. Debt is irrelevant; surplus is irrelevant.

your argument is the equlivant of saying we cant have a motorway built as you have mortgage.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010778#Comment_122010778

Ireland has the greatest wind energy potential in the EU, because there is a lot of wind in Ireland. The air quility on the streets you frequent is on average higher than almost anywhere else in the EU to a large degree because of all the wind. Currently the air quality in Dubrovnik is almost twice as bad as in Dublin - 48 vs 26.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010807#Comment_122010807

Debt is irrelevant… 2008 just rang and wants a word with you.

Funny thing is, that motorway argument is exactly how I conduct my life. If I had a mortgage I would not be borrowing more to buy a €40K EV, borrowing more to chuck solar panels and batteries on my roof and then borrowing another €110K to do a house retrofit to avail of a heat pump grant.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010940#Comment_122010940

you dont seem to understand how government debt works, or, that a government project had nothing to to with your personal finances do you.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010846#Comment_122010846

Would you prefer Irish taxpayers pay to remove local pollution in Croatia then instead of Ireland?

Personally, I'm selfish and want my government to improve my air quality, sorry Croats.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010846#Comment_122010846

That all depends on where the monitoring stations are sited. Air quality always scores better higher up off the street as majority of stations are.

At street level walking past all the traffic air quality is not good. Unless you have low standards.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009383#Comment_122009383

What % of EV drivers in those countries have access to a home charger.

Also consider that they are part of Europe and benefit from people travelling through the country by car

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009976#Comment_122009976

Right, now I understand why you said it was 1.2 MW pools. Because it's the 2027 requirement. That is 600 kW pool in each direction with minimum 2 chargers with 150 kW minimum output. Technically, it could be implemented by 2x 300 kW chargers with 2 connectors each per direction. Do you think operators will use up the whole pool or leave capacity for expansion and go with the minimum for now?

How many such pools are being tendered out? My estimate would be roughly 6 top (or 12 if counting both of directions) on the TEN-T route.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010267#Comment_122010267

Norway is not the topic. It's a red herring.

Let's try Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, UK, and now even countries like Portugal, Czechia... They could do better EV infra and so on.

The government will generate debt either way. You're essentially saying the government is powerless in advancing strategic policies because of debt. I find it depressive and defeatist.

I suspect the real problem is that the gov doesn't have a solid policy, doesn't have competent people taking care of the EV policy and doesn't really care to advance EVs. It's obvious. How else Ypu would explain 1M EVs goal but no serious policies to achieve it.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011238#Comment_122011238

Wouldn't be hugely diferent to explain a difference on the order of magnitude (10x more). Home residence is average 56% in Europe, here it's 90%. Netherlands with 3500 chargers isn't that hugely different.

Point being, all cars can't slow charge at home at all times. You need motorway energy delivery.

Even if we factor in all these differences it can't explain the disparity in numbers.

If we're serious about EVs for Joe and Mary I.e. for everyone (the 1M EV goal) we need to catch up with Europe. The infrastructure sucks, it's grand for 1.5% EVs of total fleet but can't see it working for 5 or 10% or attracting the next wave of hesitant adopters.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010000#Comment_122010000

But wouldn't 4 times 150 kW = 600 kW warrant a new substation?

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010722#Comment_122010722

The biggest emmisions sources here are animal agriculture and transport. The government isn't curbing emissions in either. Animal agri is expanding rather being reduced. Electrification in transport is let's say lukewarm.

And Ireland is also last in % renewable energy use in the EU - because of heating, transport, and agri. Despite high % of renewable electricity generation.

So yeah, plus data centres and fines are on the way...

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011038#Comment_122011038

I'm not of a belief that EV's make much of a difference to air polution in Ireland, so your question is a non sequiter, in fact I'd say they are nearly irrelevant. It is simply far too windy in Ireland for cars to matter much. If It were up to me, I'd stop encouraging people to buy diesels instead of petrol, which is still government policy despite knowing it's worse for air quality and people's health, because it's insanely fixated on CO bloody 2.

Australia ranks as having annual PM2.5 air polution of 4.5 vs Ireland 6.5 annualized 2023. How can that be when we know Australia gets most of it's electricity from burning coal, are car mad having enormous engine sizes and weights compared to Ireland and emit twice as much CO2 per head as here - 15t vs 7.7t? How can Perth currently have less than half the air pollution of Dublin - 9 vs 26 - while having almost no EVs?

My bet is it's because they were never stupid enough to vote in someone like Gormley, so everyone drives petrol ICE, not diesels. Ireland has the equal highest concentration of diesels vs petrol in Europe at 77%. There's your air polution problem, except it's not really, because there is generally too much wind for it to accumulate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013474#Comment_122013474

I would say the government should not be spending beyond it's means and should be reducing debt, not pretending the country is as wealthy as Norway and acting accordingly. The country has a problem with a public sector that to me seems stuffed to the gills with socially idealistic semi competents who give bad advice to whatever 'same as the other lot' politicians happen to be in power. The national childrens hospital fiasco would be a good example. A lot of the blame for that lies with civil service incompetence. Boardsies who have worked on the project say the plans and designs were incomplete. That's likely why when an enquiry into the shambles was announced, the frames of reference specifically stated that no blame would would be apportioned to individuals. The financial crisis in 2008 - the civil service regulators let that happen and did not do their job: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/jbr.2011.30

Need I even mention the HSE, which has seen Ireland have one of the highest expenditures per head in the OECD with the poorest outcomes. The housing crisis is another: Local councils coud build houses for half their open market cost, so twice as much social housing could be provisioned per € spent. This isn't done because the civil service is incompetent to mange such an obviously beneficial effort, so instead Councils buy completed new-builds at prices first time buyers can't match, wasting considerable sums of taxpayers money by paying twice as much as should be necessary.

Energy policy and the envisioned joke of a plan (sic) to reach zero CO2 by 2050 - AKA never.

Take Gormley's forcing of diesel. Green apologists will pop up at every mention of this claiming the car companies lied, which is a joke. Even with the claimed nox figures they should never have been favoured as those levels were still too high for peoples health given the available evidence. But the real kicker, and one that shows how incompetent the civil service is, was that no one seems to have ever told Gormley that diesel exhaust also contains the most potent carcinogen ever discovered - 3-nitrobenzanthrone. The UN declared diesel exhaust carcinogenic in 2012, but we still favour them over petrol 12 years later.

As for explaining the uptake of EV's below target - that's easy: the target was too high - more idealism. EVs are status toys for the well off, like solar panel hobyism. Most people can't afford them, not just here, but in the EU in general, except Norway, which leverages it's massive sovereign wealth fund to make them financially attractive. EV uptake is failing everywhere at the moment, and analysts consistently point the finger at the high cost, not the EV proselytisers favourite - ignorance.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2024/04/08/europe-to-buy-nearly-9-million-fewer-evs-by-2030-than-expected-report/

BailMeOut

Always wonder why they do not discount when rates are low overnight. Most fast chargers are rarely used in middle of the night and would imagine plenty of people would use them at these times to save money.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013767#Comment_122013767

look, youve proven you cant keep on topic, youve detrailed the conversation with, seemingly intresting poitns, but are completely irrelivant to the topic of the thread. youneed to stop trying to have a conversation you want, and joint the one being had.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013788#Comment_122013788

I dunno if I'd get up at three in the morning to dash to the nearest 150kW+ charger to avail of a half price deal (or whatever) that might just save me twenty quid.

BailMeOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014466#Comment_122014466

But many would.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014523#Comment_122014523

I'm going to have to ask for poll results for that one. 🤣

ted1

As a percentage it’s twice as many living in flats, but many houses in cities don’t have off street parking.

But the population is 3 time that of ours

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013788#Comment_122013788

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014523#Comment_122014523

I believe charging operators buy their units in bulk ahead of time and at a fixed price, it does not vary by time of use.

John Byrne, head of e-cars at ESB, told The Irish Times that: “We purchase our electricity in blocks, so as the wholesale price has come down, and as we roll over our contracts and buy our next blocks of energy, then we hope to avail of those lower wholesale costs and pass those savings on to consumers.

https://www.irishtimes.com/motors/2023/08/16/ev-charging-prices-to-fall-in-near-future-says-esb/

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014669#Comment_122014669

You mean in the Netherlands?

McGiver

The wholesale pricing isn't dynamic?

Microgeneration in the UK and in some European countries is on dynamic pricing market (pricing changing every hour or even 30 minutes based on current load & production).

Shouldn't it be dynamic given the % renewables and dynamic nature of the grid (which will only increase in future)?

If it's static for wholesale it can hardly be dynamic for the end consumer. Or it can be but the operator has much smaller room to maneuver with the prices at different times of the day.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122022470#Comment_122022470

the wholesale price is indeed dynamic. But companies don’t buy off the wholesale.

And you’ll find that those who think are buying dynamic following the market have price caps and are not truly following them market. There can be some Really high spikes in the wholesale price

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015039#Comment_122015039

They might do but dynamic pricing would surely keep chargers more active at all times of the day. Increasing usage surely is key.

65535

"Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop" - Just how much on a league table are public charging rates today ?

innrain

I think the OP was thing of the ESB charging rate when wrote that. ESB rates 59* - 69 c/kWh. *5quid/month subscription

Others may have it higher Like Ionity 70c/kWh down to 50c/kWh for 6 quid/month.

Easy Go pricing varies. Most of them would be 70c/kWh +27c at the start but Lidl sites can be 58c/kWh+27c start

Applegreen and Circle K are 68c/kWh. Maxol 75c/kWh (not 100% sure)

Weev and ePower varies a lot from 40c to 75c /kWh.

Tesla pricing is dynamic currently 42/47c/kWh (off-peak/peak hours) for Tesla cars, 55/60 c/kWh for non-Tesla cars with possibility to reduce to the same level as for Tesla cars for a 10quid/month

These are all DC charging prices. Have I missed something?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061037#Comment_122061037

No I was asking why the price of charging at any of the providers hasn't dropped when the wholesale price has dropped nearly 40% since this time last year. If petrol stations don't drop their prices when the price of crude drops it's national news, and the crude price is a tiny part of dino juices pump price, yet no one is seems to care that the price of public charging isn't dropping when the price to the supply has dropped substantially.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061037#Comment_122061037

Brite, only one station in galway as low as 41c (night time weekdays) and as high as 63c (peak weekend rate) 55c most of the week, 59c most of the weekend. Cheaper than ecars 68c at every time of the day