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Taxation of alternative fuelled vehicles

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden



    I really dont know how you think its nonsense. They've been working for a few years now on a way that they could tax EVs on fuel. This is it. Im sure they are still working on refining it to get as many as possible into the net, but ability to record the juice that goes into the car remotely is the major hurdle that this solves. Granny charger will be the only way around it, but im sure they are working on that now too.

    When they decide to start taxing electricity used in EVs in future, now it will be a simple task. Unless you think that they will never tax EV fuel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4nXOyScSEA



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    So you think they arent going to tax EV fuel then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    12.5% versus ballpark 50% on a litre of fuel plus higher VRT. The accelerating transition to EVs will lead to a significant reduction in motor related tax revenue so I suppose the question is how, rather than if, Govt will recoup those revenue losses from a traditional cash cow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Oh there will be more than VAT. You can be 100% sure of that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,149 ✭✭✭Miscreant


    The Government could quite easily recoup some lost revenue here by increasing the Motor Tax on EVs to €500 per annum or something similar. At the moment, EVs are being incentivised to reach certain targets and once that has happened (or the target is close to being achieved) then the big bang of taxation will roll in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Probably change to annual motor tax based on vehicle weight which is analogous to the old system of motor tax by engine capacity. Both don't follow the user pays principal like tax on fossil fuel does. Taxing use by mileage would be a headache and opens the door for a decent car clocking industry.

    Between VAT, VRT and motor tax, the scum that decide to the tax the motorist so much need to turn their attention to accountability in public spending.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    There will absolutely be taxation measures for AFVs, but it's incredibly unlikely to be a system based on supplied electricity. Imagine a system that applies excise duty to electricity used to charge an EV. It would immediately fail as you could use a granny charger to charge from any 3 pin plug socket. People go to the effort of washing green diesel they will absolutely go to the effort of plugging in to a socket.

    All of the policy papers discussing replacement of fuel and motor taxes are focused on systems of road usage tax, it is seen as a much more equitable system in that it allows you to charge tax based on usage of the roads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Make your own free, untaxable, zero emissions, 100% renewable fuel 😎



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    "Untaxable" for now, you never know, they taxed daylight in the olden days so taxation of sunshine not new😎



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  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    For now indeed. Until we get a usage based tax as per @liamog's post. That's years away though, I will have produced a lot of free clean untaxable fuel by then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Since the government policy is to encourage self consumption of renewables, it would seem pointless to tax electricity going to an EV. You'd just sell it to the grid then which ESBN would prefer you didn't do


    As I've said before, the government will stick with the old reliable method of a fixed annual charge

    They'll probably divide up the EV category to make new rate bands and it's anyone's guess as to what they'll use, could be motor output, size, weight, efficiency, whatever

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    They can hardly charge a €500 fixed motor tax on clean zero emission EVs when they've put a €190-€280 fixed motor tax on cancer causing diesels for the last 15 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    In 2021 the government collected around €2-2.5 billion from Excise duties on fuel, versus a total tax take of €67.5 billion and a VAT take of €15.4 billion

    It's hardly an amount to be sneezed at, but the government will hardly be bankrupted by the loss of excise duties from fuel


    There's a whole bunch of other taxes they could use to recover that. A very simple one would be to raise the VAT amount on electricity from the current 9%, no way to dodge that one by using a granny lead

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,149 ✭✭✭Miscreant


    They're the Government, they can charge whatever they like.....

    All that aside, there will be some way found to plug that tax gap. Using a blunt instrument like Motor Tax would be the easiest way. Otherwise, they could use all these new fangled "Smart" meters that are being installed to see what power is being used by a property at any one time. I doubt there are many appliances in a domestic setting that would have a constant, near 7kw power draw for 5 or 6 hours during the night. Even the worst of tumble dryers and washing machines would be half that draw and not for that length of time. Couple that with an EV being registered at the address and you have a formula for charging a higher tax for that usage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    You'd think that, @Miscreant. But I could manipulate my draw at the main incomer in many different ways. I could draw a flat 2kW for 24/7 if I wanted. No matter what I used it for. Nobody would be able to tell what I was doing

    Also I plan to be pretty much off grid with near zero units used from late April to late August. That includes home heating, hot water heating, all the house electricity use for a family of 5 and all my EVs. All 100% powered by the sun.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    You're right €2.5bn is not to be sneezed at and will be difficult to recover elsewhere. Can you imagine the uproar from large sections of the electorate if the Govt proposed an increase in electricity taxes to protect EV drivers.

    Why wouldn't they seek to continue to recover from the motorist? I know some people think that EVs are different as they have zero tailpipe emissions but the reality is that private motoring was heavily taxed before we cottoned onto the possibility of gaining popular support for it by linking VRT, motor tax, fuel duty, carbon taxes to emissions. Its just about rebranding motor taxes and breathe life back into an old reliable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭Furze99


    But you are far from typical. Sure you told us you were heating your house at one stage from crypto mining rigs!

    The state will take the easiest route - probably motor tax and it'll have to be higher than ICE equivalents to balance out loss of revenue from motor fuels.

    Usage by mileage would be fairer, harder to implement.

    I don't think you can escape either of those increased taxation measures as they'll apply to all regardless of how many solar panels they have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I have paid maximum motor tax (sometimes as high as €1808 per year) in the past for many years for cars that did low mileages. I guess I am entitled to a wee break here 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    In fairness you should have driven more environmentally friendly cars 😁😁



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I literally just said that it's less than 5% of the overall tax revenue, probably even lower now since excuse got slashed and other forms of tax are bringing in more revenue

    I don't doubt there's going to be some form of taxation of EV ownership in the future. Motor tax rates will go up and it's divisive when someone who can barely afford a beat up Yaris is paying more tax than a Taycan owner


    But the idea that the government is going to somehow build a massive surveillance system to monitor electricity usage and determine how much of that is being used to charge an EV is just ludicrous to me

    This isn't China, our government doesn't have the desire, legal basis or technical resources to accomplish any of that

    The only viable option I could see for an energy tax that targets EV charging would be to tax DC charging.

    This could be possible because there is some truth to the argument that DC charging is bad for both the grid and the environment, since it involves additional use of gas fired power stations

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    Fully agree that its extremely unlikely that EV electricity use will be taxed and that EV taxation will be increased, most likely by an increase in VRT and Motor tax rates whenever the Govt deems its movable EV targets are met.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,349 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    After the switch from engine size based motor tax and VRT to CO2 based taxation back in 2008, the government almost immediately started to lose billions because everybody switched to cancerous, but low CO2 diesels.


    Interestingly, these taxes were never increased and the government made up for the shortfall from other taxes



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    I imagine the technology will come at an EU level targeted at the TEN-T network. It will be sold as a unified system for inter-country travel around the EU. A few years ago the parliament called for countries to simply the multiple toll/vignettes that are required in each country.

    Cars will likely have to have secured meters installed in the same vain as taxi meters and will be inspected for tampering at every NCT. I wouldn't be surprised if commercial vehicles are rolled out first where the tech can be developed and the consequences for tampering are much easier to apply.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    Yes but what a success when the policy target was to reduce CO2 emissions!! And what a boom for the 520D!

    With the removal of most pre 2008 cars from the roads and the accelerated transition to EVs, unless there is another policy reset shortly car taxes will virtually disappear, can't see that happening in Ireland. Will it be another balls up.. watch this space



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I agree with you there that tolling will become more comprehensive

    A lot of people say that road tax pays for road maintenance. That isn't true anymore, but it was the original theory behind it


    While tolling doesn't directly benefit the government because it isn't income for them, a more extensive system of tolls that can't be avoided would likely pay for a lot of maintenance of the motorway network. And in turn that means it no longer needs to be funded by the taxpayer

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭creedp


    Yes but just because motor tax is not hypoteticated does not mean that it doesn't contribute to funding road maintenance. Reality is it forms part of the total tax revenue used to fund public expenditure including road maintemance. Reducing motor tax means other taxes have to be increased to support expenditure including the cost of road maintenance.

    I think the issue with the transition to EVs is that the link between use of the roads and cost to the motorist is being greatly erroded. Currently with taxation making up approx 50% of the price of fiuel, their is a strong link between road usage and tax revenue, the more you drive the more you contribute to the upkeep of the roads. This is particularly the case with private motorists who can't write off the costs of motoring, whereas self-employed / business can claim vat back and write off cost of fuel against income, thereby eroding their contribution to the cost of maintaining the roads they use. I live in a rural area and I always hate to see newly surfaced roads torn up by massive agri vehicles exiting from fields onto the road, especially during warm summer weather. I suppose its no worse that seeing utility companies dig up newly surfaced urban roads.

    In any case certainly increased road tolls would increase the link between road use and cost to the motorist and would apply to all categories of road users including EVs



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    So all the health and other savings from transition to electric vehicles will be ignored?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I don't think they'll be ignored but they will take a long time to have material effect, probably more like 20 years

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I think local roads are maintained by the council and should be done so out of LPT revenue

    The reality of course is that it just isn't economical to maintain roads in some areas, the population density isn't there and so there needs to be additional funding from the government

    I've also seen great examples of new roads getting torn up by heavy trucks and argri vehicles, but you do need to stop and ask the question, if the road was built to spec, and the vehicle in question is roadworthy, then why was the road damaged so badly?

    It's quite possible the situation should not have happened in the first place.

    I do think there'll be some linkage between heavy road usage and taxation. Maybe it'll be a tax on DC charging, or a special PSO levy on higher powered grid connections, since heavier electric vehicles like trucks will almost exclusively be using those chargers

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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