Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002911#Comment_122002911

Lol you're forgetting many of us EV owners have ICE car at home and don't give a f1ck about the EV infrastructure because it's mostly sh1t anyway.

I wouldn't have a BEV if we didn't have the ICE at home.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003527#Comment_122003527

@D_D "…95% of charging is done at home, so these fast charging sites need to make their money back from the remaining 5%. Very difficult to do on expensive infrastructure."

A lot of EV owners have ICE as 2nd car.

@prawnsambo "But yes, you're correct and public charging prices will only come down when there are enough BEVs on the road to make that possible."

Wishful thinking lol.

At the current prices that are being charged for DC fast charging there isn't going to be an increase in BEV sales, which are currently declining.

Yes, if the tech is good enough people will buy it.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002911#Comment_122002911

The reason why 90% or 95% of charging is done at home is because people who don't have off street parking aren't buying BEVs as they get no benefit from owning one, they are actually inconvenienced as they are paying the same as ICE while it takes longer to refill. If we want to increase BEV ownership we have to make it work for people who can't charge at home and currently with the price of charging and the lack of infrastructure it's not viable. Even if more infrastructure is built if it's not cost competitive, like the current options for MUDs, then people still won't buy BEVs. Petrol stations make feck all profit from the fuel, how come electricity stations have to make huge profits when they cost roughly the same? If they dropped the prices they'd get more customers and make their profits through scale rather than gouging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003648#Comment_122003648

Our forests where cleared in the 19th century so we can't be blamed for being defrosted when it was done long before people knew the value of forests. We now know the issues with cutting down forests.

If we replanted out forests then other countries would destroy their nature to produce what we've stopped producing, as much as people talk about people eating less meat it's not going to happen and as poor countries develop they start consuming more meat. Is it better to have us producing in an fairly efficient way on land that's been cleared for centuries, lots of out land isn't suitable for tillage, vs destroying virgin forests?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003527#Comment_122003527

It's chicken and egg I suppose. If you look at countries like Norway who've had phenomenal uptake of BEVs, they've used a combination of supports to achieve this. But then again, they can afford it. A middle ground approach will take longer, but it probably starts with a combination of more chargers, greater range and falling cost of entry.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003907#Comment_122003907

Petrol stations make feck all profit from the fuel, how come electricity stations have to make huge profits when they cost roughly the same?

You've pretty much answered that question yourself. If only 10% of charging is done on public charging networks and the EV fleet is only a fraction of the ICE fleet, there isn't the scale in public charging to make it profitable without high margins.

D_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003527#Comment_122003527

My comment was in response to @listermint stating that the government and ESB shouldn't be in the business of EV charging. If eCars are doing it not to make a profit, how would a private business model do it out of the kindness of their hearts?

D_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003651#Comment_122003651

Ok, that's your approach to it. We're a single car household which is a BEV.

D_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003907#Comment_122003907

I would be of the opinion that if you can't charge at home, then don't buy an EV until that problem has been solved. And I can bet you there are a lot of folks looking at this issue and trying to come up with solutions.

Also, your comparison to petrol pumps not making a profit. For petrol stations, the infrastructure is well established and already in place. This is not the case for the EV charging infrastructure which needs a lot of funding to ramp up to scale.

D_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003992#Comment_122003992

Fully agree with this, Norway's government understood that the only way to get people into EVs was under the mantra "if you build it, they will come". So public funding was used to build the charging infrastructure which gave people confidence when purchasing an EV.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003992#Comment_122003992

ireland can afford this too, very little diffrence in the budgets of each country, similar poulation density, no reason we cant afford it.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005670#Comment_122005670

True, but we can't go back in time to when Norway started and costs were much lower.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004166#Comment_122004166

I would be of the opinion that if you can't charge at home, then don't buy an EV until that problem has been solved.

I would be of the opinion that this is a problem that needs to be solved. Something like a subscription to allow you to refill your car at the same price as you do at home I think would be best. A one app - one card approach would be good as well

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003648#Comment_122003648

Agree with a lot of it. We need trees, absolutely. But trees don't help with diesel particulates really. You're dead right about the big cars, but it's a global trend in developed countries. Can't stop it but can be taxed imho.

Anyway the topic is prices of public charging. The prices will stay high imho but the government should tax ICE and fuels heavily. But they're afraid.

We don't need the carrot, incentives, really, it's nice to have them but we absolutely need the stick. There's no way around it.

The easiest way is to reflect environmental and health damage to price of products - fuels and cars. Given that electricity won't hey cheaper, fossil fuel dino juice must get more expensive. The earlier the gov starts doing it the better, else there's gonna be a shock therapy if they dither.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001598#Comment_122001598

Yep, it's fine to kick start it, as a temporary measure. I still think the government could have done it differently, as it was done in European countries I.e. let experts do it and just pay for it. But we're where we are and from now on it should be tendered out to the charging operators and the charging market deregulate to stimulate growth. It must be super easy to get a grid connection - less paperwork for operators, also the government should reduce the cost of entering the market in whatever way possible.

innrain

At the EU level there was money since 2021 for different project under the Alternative Fuel whatever the name is. Last call over 400M. Guess how many in IE?

https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/transport-infrastructure-over-eur-424-million-eu-funding-boost-zero-emission-mobility-2024-04-10_en

None. I wonder why?

Tesla is getting 10M for infrastructure in 11 countries (BG, CZ, DK, EE, EL, HU, LV, LT, PT, SK, ES). Nothing for out shores.

The most expensive project it is a hydrogen one in Poland at 62M funding, total cost 124M.

McGiver

The Norwegian sovereign fund is a completely different topic. We're talking about DC charging network.

The charging network is almost entirely private in Norway and other countries in Europe. I don't think the state should run petrol stations. And equally I don't think it should run fast charging network. It's always going to be suboptimal, result in poor outcomes, poor service etc. As I will demonstrate.

So how has the semi-public model worked so far Ireland? Not much.

Netherlands - 3600+ CCS DC - entirely private network, very competitive landscape, but OK it's 3 times larger population - divide by three :)

Czechia - 1400+ CCS DC - rapid growth in the last few years, 85% is private with dozens of providers, the 15% is a semi-state energy company and an equivalent of ESB. Yeah a tad bigger country, although a similar area as Ireland, and all that but it has fewer EVs than Ireland…

Denmark - 2300+ CCS DC, rapid growth, 90% private operators, country of the same size and population as Ireland…

Ireland - 220 CCS DC - 80% public/semi-state, complete outlier in Europe…

Currently, Ireland has as many DC chargers as tiny Slovenia. And before anyone says that - yes, these examples are all transit countries but that doesn't explain ALL the numbers, maybe a fraction of them. It's still multiples of chargers even if you factor in difference in motorway length, population, transit traffic etc.

I'm not sure how much evidence is needed to give a wider context to people so that they reevaluate their ideas. The current model is not working and the private sector needs to take over. The government should focus on stimulating the charging market by various means (incentives and/or mandates) instead of trying to build suboptinal network themselves at a very snail pace.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003992#Comment_122003992

Not, it's not, as you can see the examples I gave. Other countries are solving the catch22 problem. Even if we ignore Norway.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009268#Comment_122009268

100%. Absolute failure of the Irish government to draw money from it. A lot of the rapid growth I demonstrated in the charts was/is funded from that EU project.

I believe this project for RO, LT, BG is also partly funded from the same EU fund as well as financed by the EIB.
2500 chargers for Lithuania and 8000 for Romania….massive numbers.
https://www.eib.org/en/press/all/2024-025-investeu-eib-signs-eur40-million-loan-with-eldrive-to-expand-electric-vehicle-charging-networks-in-bulgaria-lithuania-and-romania

...Ghost...

Just got an email from Tesla. I don't use SCs much at all, but glad it's not targeted at Tesla owners.

From April 13th, we are updating Supercharging pricing. All customers can purchase a membership to access lower prices for Supercharging or pay higher, non-membership prices.

As a Tesla driver, you're automatically a member and you can continue to access lower member prices when Supercharging.

No action required. 

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009383#Comment_122009383

tbh, its a very easy fix, just change fuel station regs to mandate instalation of 4 charge units, minimum dc 50kwh speeds, and give a grant of 50% of the cost.

if we want to be serious about it, lets be serious about it, itll cost about 200mill to the state, so what, yearly budget is 112billion likley be over 5 years too for implementation.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009414#Comment_122009414

It isn't an issue today but in time to come membership could be a thing Tesla owners will have to pay for in order to avail of discounted pricing at Superchargers, just like other EV drivers. Tesla could use this as a way to drop their car prices further

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009419#Comment_122009419

Yeah, plethora of options. Mandates are part of the solution.
But mandates themselves on their own won't work, the biggest issue is with getting grid connection and then planning permission. Both need to be deregulated for charging operators to lower the barrier of entry to the market by new operators.
Else you gonna end up with the big boys running the show and the usual cartel situation like with many other segments in Ireland.


EDIT: And yes, even this solution you suggested would result in better outcomes and RoI than Gov+ESB doing it on their own and burning taxpayer's money.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009505#Comment_122009505

I think grid connections and planning should be the opposite of deregulation. The UK national grid set up a task force to handle the demands of grid connections, they identified that the previous grid planning system where a building project has a multi-year timeline before the connection is required was a stumbling block, they developed substations in a box and a faster method of working for EV charging infrastructure to align with the much quicker build out process.

ESBN have also developed a substation in a box, I would expect to see a specialist team in place that can improve the turnaround time from order to go-live for charging deployments as the requirements per site are pretty generic. As part of the AFIR funding there will be a large number of 1.2MW charging pools that are meant to be deployed by the end of December next year. ESBN should be treating this a large project and not doing each step in a piecemeal fashion.

As to the planning issues, we currently exempt up to 4 chargers, though the addition of a substation does need planning. We saw from Blanchardstown and Carrickmines that the planning process is reasonably quick.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009593#Comment_122009593

By deregulation I mean "lower barriers of entry for new market players".
Because of grid connection is so expensive and time consuming to get, new operators won't enter already anaemic market. This puts them off. The same for planning permissions.
The government needs to legislate for exceptions or streamline PP and grid connection for network operators. They should get a priority and it should cost less for them to do so. Else no new operators will come to the market. And you'll be left with the usual oligopoly so common in Ireland.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009593#Comment_122009593

As part of the AFIR funding there will be a large number of 1.2MW charging pools that are meant to be deployed by the end of December next year. ESBN should be treating this a large project and not doing each step in a piecemeal fashion.

How much is "large number"?

Looking at the AFIR specifics:

The text of the regulation provides for specific deployment targets that will have to be met in 2025 or 2030, in particular:
from 2025 onwards, fast recharging stations of at least 150kW for cars and vans need to be installed every 60 km along the EU’s main transport corridors, the so-called ‘trans-European transport (TEN-T) network’

recharging stations for heavy-duty vehicles with a minimum output of 350kW need to be deployed every 60 km along the TEN-T core network, and every 100 km on the larger TEN-T comprehensive network from 2025 onwards, with complete network coverage by 2030

The AFIR is not very ambitious.

If I understand correctly ONE charger in each direction for every 60 km will tick the box (albeit with power ready for 2 more chargers). This may not have the desired effect for Ireland, because the only TEN-T route in Ireland is Route 8 which is Belfast-Dublin-Cork. By the end of 2025 this might not have much, if any, effect in Irish context. We're already there IMHO looking at the 150 kW+ map on Plugshare. From 2025 to 2027 the requirement goes to 2 chargers per 60 km and a pool of 600 kW. Good as a joke, perhaps an absolute minimum but else pretty badly drawn legislation detached from reality of what's needed by 2025 or 2027 market. The EU isn't taking it very seriously. Kind of proves my point that any government "planning" is a counterproductive and suboptimal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea%E2%80%93Mediterranean_Corridor

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009892#Comment_122009892

In theory you could deliver one 600kW charger per location. In practice that would be completely nuts and a waste of the grid connection.

The regulation requires a pool (total rapid charging kW per site) and a minimum of 1 150kW charger. Meaning you can't just deploy 12 50kW chargers to meet the requirement. Pools are per direction of travel and may be combined if the location is accessible from both directions.

The Irish tender is targeting the 2027 requirements and is focused on pools of 600kW/1.2MW instead of the lower 2025 target.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009711#Comment_122009711

It's already streamlined, you don't need planning permission for installation of up to 4 free standing chargers without a new substation. Legislation isn't going to make a physical grid connection cheaper, only subsidising it will, and ESBN standardising the equipment (such as the box substation they've developed)

dsandson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009268#Comment_122009268

Tesla made 2 applications to that fund. The second one lead by Tesla Italy included Ireland, and was successful.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005670#Comment_122005670

Norway's oil and gas revenues are €83 billion a year. That's about €15K per head of population. There is a massive difference between Norway's financial resources and Ireland's. They don't have amongst the highest debt per capita in the world to service via interest payments, like Ireland, in fact they don't have any debt, whereas we have €46K per head of debt.

Every call for the Irish government to do something to advance EV uptake basically is advocating either increasing the national debt or decreasing the rate at which existing debt is paid down.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122010267#Comment_122010267

Arent we paying large carbon fines ?.