Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978694#Comment_121978694

The pumps themselves are relatively cheap, but the build cost of a petrol station with a shop, fit-out and other ancillary bits would be in the region of €2 million. A normal petrol station wouldn't be a valid comparison though, one of those Certa 24 hour jobbies with no staff costs or shop would be more like a charging hub. Substitute the cost of fitting tanks for the cost of getting the power in and everything else would be analogous. Probably.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978814#Comment_121978814

How cheap would a pump be by comparison to a DC charger?

Those fuel storage tanks are normally underground and need to have very high safety standards for obvious reasons so can't see them costing less than a substation for example

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978920#Comment_121978920

Hard to get an exact price, there are so many variables, but around 2k seems to be a good working figure. You can find them for sale in China for around $1200.

Storage tanks aren't that expensive, but it's the installation that costs the big bucks. So I think fairly analogous to putting in a substation.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978969#Comment_121978969

But how many litres of diesel or petrol are you going to be pumping per hour compared to kwh being pumped.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979061#Comment_121979061

I'd say the margin would be more important than the volume. Obviously volume is part of the equation, but if you're getting a margin of (say) 10c per kWh vs 4-5c per litre, your volume would only need to be half. And the margin on 350kWh units has to be far more than 10c.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979087#Comment_121979087

I think you would be talking 100s of times the volume/units per day not twice.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979097#Comment_121979097

It was a hypothetical based on a given margin for electricity. I've no idea what the wholesale price of electricity is, but it has to be cheaper than domestic prices. So if I take Energia's price for 24hr (no night rate) at 24c and compare with the average 350kWh+ rates of ~76c. Assuming you've a car capable of taking an average of 200 from start to finish for (say) 15 minutes, that's 50kWh or €25. Your petrol pump would have to pump 500 litres in the same time to make the same money. Don't think that's physically possible.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979097#Comment_121979097

At the minute maybe, but in future (and even just when costs come down) the volume for charging will go way up.

It is without doubt far more profitable to run EV chargers than fuel pumps, even at current low volumes. The ROI is much better

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979157#Comment_121979157

I think you might be suffering from a bit of bias in your thinking here :)

How much fuel do you think an average garage pumps per day from one tank?

Now how many kwh do you think an average charger gets through in a day?

We did a project in college where we sat and watched the pumps for a day in a garage in Ashbourne, which wouldnt even be the busiest of garages. It just had a convenient place to park and watch the cars, the amount of people in each car and the amount of people that went into the shop from once place all day.

Each pump served an average of 14 cars per hour from opening til closing and there was a steady stream all day.

I never did that with an ev charger, but im guessing maybe 2 to 3 per hour per charger, if there is a steady stream all day.

Now we didnt check if they were filling fully or just half etc so we just assume a half tank for every car.

Also think about the fact that most EV owners do 95% of their charging at home too, so your market is less than a petrol pump.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979440#Comment_121979440

Question my figures, but don't accuse me of bias when I provided a quite detailed basis for my calculations. And 14 cars per hour is one every 4 minutes or so. That sounds like the pump was going every minute from open to close. In that 4 minutes you have to get out of the car, open the fuel cap, insert the nozzle and pump (average pump speed is 40l/min). Replace the nozzle, close the fuel cap and then queue in the shop to pay, exit and get in the car and drive away. You could do it, but everyone? All the time? Without spending time in the shop buying snacks or drinks or whatever? This sounds like a max rather than an average.

As for EV chargers, the motorway ones will be busy all day because (as you say) the majority of charging is done at home (the figure is 90% by the way), but longer journeys require top ups or at destinations. ESB eCars app shows average peak times for their chargers and these are from about 8am to 7 or 8pm. Are they used every minute of that time? I doubt it. But even at a quarter of the time (3 hours) a 150kWh charger is going to deliver 450kWh or (at my rough margin figure) €225. The equivalent of 4,500 litres of fuel.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979626#Comment_121979626

I think you are getting a bit sensitive here.

You are not making any sense at all if you just think about what you are saying here.

I will bow out and leave you to it.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979752#Comment_121979752

You accused me of bias. A completely baseless accusation.

But yeah, bye.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979839#Comment_121979839

___

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978920#Comment_121978920

teh pumps in stations are about 50k, a peice, 100kw dc charger is about the same price.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979872#Comment_121979872

Gulp. Didn't think they would be close to that much. You can actually buy them in China for a fraction of that.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979897#Comment_121979897

Tbf wouldn't pass safety standards.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979905#Comment_121979905

I would think not. Probably destined for 'Merica

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979913#Comment_121979913

I think they're also required for regular independent inspections here safety and calibration significant service costs on those. Not sure if it's monthly or less frequent.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979941#Comment_121979941

Less frequent I think. You can see the stickers on the pumps with the date of the last inspection. I don't think there's a cost associated with these, could be wrong though.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979440#Comment_121979440

The reason why 95% of EV owners charge at home is because it's not financially viable for someone who can't charge at home to have an EV as it costs as much as an ICE to run and is not as convenient. If they dropped the price of charging then more people would consider BEV instead of going ICE.

At the moment there is no reason for someone who doesn't have off street parking to consider a BEV. All the options for retrofitting MUDs are expensive and I'm sure that the hubs being planned will be too. What are the prices for charging in the hundreds of new MUDs that have been built since they have been required to have EV charging installed? Or are they all like the new development near my where they have the parking spaces painted but no chargers installed, so ICE cars have claimed them.

Fuel companies make a few cent a litre profit and it costs nearly the same to install a petrol station as a charging hub. So why is it OK for the electricity retailers to make massive profits, and hold back the transition to BEV, while people always complain about the price of fossil fuel yet fuel retailers make feck all profits from fuel. The profit in petrol stations is the coffee and snacks, €4 for 30ml of hot water, people stuck charging for 20 or 30 minutes would be a captive market.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980098#Comment_121980098

Good points. And it's something I've been wondering about too. Why have so few filling stations installed chargers? At a 25km radius of my house there are approximately 15 filling stations. Only one has chargers, the Applegreen at Coynes Cross. At the same time there are about 20 chargers in the same radius. Most are AC chargers and the fastest are 50kW. Apart from the Applegreen. There's a market there for fast chargers >50kW, but nada. In fact there are about three or four sites "coming soon" in the area, but again 50kW or less. And they've been "coming soon" for months.

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980154#Comment_121980154

all tehy have to do is make it part of teh standard for filling stations , ie, for every multi fuel pump installed, 1 ev point has to be installed. its not hard, and is going to have to happen at some time, likley sooner rather then later.

bigget issue i have atm is the multiple diffrent complanies and seperat apps needed, but, thats a diffrent rant.

Dr Turk Turkelton

They put 3 ev chargers in the extremely busy 24 hour garage 800m from my home.

There are 8 petrol/ diesel pumps, kero/ green diesel pump,2 car washes,a car valeting service,a dog washing machine, washers and driers even an egg vending machine.

There is a minimart inside and a deli with a seating area.4 coffee machines and a tea making facility.

In the last 6 months I've seen 2 cars charging there and I would be there most days and pass it every day.

This is around 40kms from Dublin City centre so not out in the sticks somewhere.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980219#Comment_121980219

That's not actually unusual for EV chargers. Unless they're on a major route just off a motorway, they tend to be used infrequently and very seldom have all chargers used. Also can depend on what output they have. Somebody topping up on a longer journey, won't want to use 22kW units and even 50kW would be relatively slow.

You'd want to be sitting outside all day to get a better picture of their use.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980219#Comment_121980219

Also if we knew where it was, it could be checked on any of the myriad apps to see real time usage.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980219#Comment_121980219

How much does it cost to charge at them? To get people to transition to BEVs the cost benefits have to filter through to people who can't charge at home. No one is going to sit for 20 or 30 minutes while paying the same as they would for diesel or petrol which can be filled in <5 minutes.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979872#Comment_121979872

Muchness muchness so

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981119#Comment_121981119

It doesn't matter how much it costs, the Government want to force people into cars they don't want. And they make a fortune on all the tax they will rake in on these expensive cars in the process but the Havana effect will become reality, older and older cars unless the Government take the Ultimate step of banning all ICEs making them uninsurable and untaxable and closing all petrol stations. Eamon Ryan would do it tomorrow if he had the power and he wouldn't care about the consequence, sure the Earth is suffering the most, who cares about how people have to get around, least of all Ryan.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981119#Comment_121981119

It's definitely a concern I have, in the medium term we're look a high degree of inequity between people who can charge at home versus those who by necessity have to regular charge in public.

The naysayers will complain that subsidisation of public charging rollouts is a gift to private motorists, for me it's more of field levelling exercise to ensure that privileged private driveway owners don't end up paying a fraction of the price compared to people who live in multi-unit dwellings (which have better levels of land-use). It's a similar problem to domestic solar installations.

I don't want to see a society where the people who can least afford to pay end up having the highest costs.

prawnsambo

It's certainly an issue that has to be addressed. Will be interesting to see how the upcoming grant scheme for those affected is structured. It's a complex issue because of the many different ways these multi-unit dwellings are constructed and laid out.

Even the simple question of who owns the shared spaces like parking and other open areas has to be taken into account in how any solution is structured. And then who pays and how (and how much) for the charging facilities.