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The Kerry Babies Case

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,558 ✭✭✭Tow


    You are probably correct, as I have been told Joanne Hayes wants to forget about the whole thing, even when articles are about her innocence.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    I wonder will we hear much coming up to the 40th anniversary? Like an appeal for information or people to come forward that may know anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,401 ✭✭✭Hangdogroad


    The couple and their lawyer seem to be clutching at straws. Comes across as trying everything to delay the investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    The victim could be celebrating his fortieth birthday this weekend but instead the arrested couple's solicitor now denies that they are his parents.

    It is amazing that a solicitor who has been all over the media for the past year complaining about the Gardai waited until now to drop this bombshell. He means that the couple always rejected the results of the forensic lab's DNA tests. Up to now, he has been arguing that the DNA did not prove murder (which is true, but it would not be credible to claim the parents had no knowledge of their infant's murder). Now he offers a totally different defence - that the "purported DNA" tests were wrong.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kerry-babies-couple-at-centre-of-baby-john-case-have-heard-nothing-since-release-last-year-solicitor-says/a354326153.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    from one of the articles above it mentions that it’s only via a court that it can be “proven” that they are the parents - so obviously a legal technicality here .

    Gardai are apparently still ongoing with the investigation and have said they’ll submit a file once ready - who knows that could be this year or two years time- all depends on what work they’re doing and the challenges of doing that investigation.

    As for who killed this poor baby, it doesn’t seem likely that anyone will be charged - a number of different scenarios could have played out at the time - I think it’s likely there is a person or persons still alive today who know what happened and why - but without their statement I don’t see this progressing to a murder trial



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    This is the problem with a solicitor acting as a PR agent. Is he making a legal point - that the burden of proof remains with the Gardai or is he making a public statement on behalf of his clients to deny that they are the parents? The newspaper report, naturally, takes the latter approach.

    Either way, we have the absurdity of a woman saying - "prove to me that I gave birth" and, if the DNA proves she's the mother, she says "I don't know anything about how my baby was massacred within days of its birth".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Indeed - take a general scenario not related to this case of course as an illustrative example -baby given up for adoption at birth - parents assume all is well and that baby was adopted somewhere in the world -



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I could imagine many scenarios in which the parents did not murder this baby. I cannot imagine any scenario in which they could not help the investigating Gardai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    If you’re given legal advice the general consensus would be to take it - there’s lots of things people may naturally “wish” to do, but may not always be in their best legal interests to do so - especially if they are a line of enquiry in a murder investigation



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,472 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    interesting

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/forty-years-of-secrets-kerry-babies-couple-deny-dna-proves-they-are-parents-of-murdered-child/a1245987858.html
    “Their home was “turned upside down and inside out” during a garda search, he says. Wallpaper was stripped off the walls and floorboards were taken up. He does not know what items, if any, were removed from the home.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭conorhal


    I can, a scenario in which the two involved murdered a child and are desperate to avoid spending the rest of their days behind bars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    The solicitor really isn’t doing them much favours. I understand his job is to represent his clients and put doubt on the investigation but if DNA has confirmed they are the parents then I’m not sure how they can walk away from this without at least acknowledging that was their baby.
    I just don’t understand as a parent how you could not want to resolve your child’s death and give them a proper name and identity. Wasn’t it also reported that it was a sibling of Baby Johns who provided the DNA to the gardai? If so, why would they have done that unless someone revealed something or the sibling became aware somehow?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    The Guards voluntarily obtained DNA samples from locals to try to identify baby John, I don't think his older brother was aware they were related.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "Now he offers a totally different defence - that the "purported DNA" tests were wrong."

    It would be very easy to prove they weren't wrong.

    Up until now I believe the story was that they didn't admit to being the parents, which is different to denying the fact.

    O'Connel strikes me as a Gerry O'Carroll type.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,401 ✭✭✭Hangdogroad


    Definitely, the more and more I see/hear the guy the more my dislike of him grows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,518 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    He had two brothers but the indo article doesn't say if they are younger or older.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    Think that's a typo.

    It was a full siblings DNA that led them to the couple.

    So they obviously remained together after baby John and went on to have more children.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Call be skeptical, but I believe the family were targeted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    Was it not the sibling was arrested in the states and DNA taken ....it was pretty much a freak event that brought it to light.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It sounds freaky alright, too freaky, which is why I'm skeptical.

    I don't believe the States connection, how would DNA taken in the States for what I believe was a minor offence be matched to a 40 year old murder in Cahirciveen? If it was the case it must have been the Baby John investigation in Caherciveen that found the link, in other words they went looking.

    They knew the family.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/kerry-babies-how-arrests-were-made-dna-computer-mapping-6027696-Mar2023/

    "Gardaí also obtained a full DNA profile for the deceased child, which meant that investigators could call on certain individuals and ask them to provide their DNA if they suspected they had a link to the case."

    Now I don't understand the legalities around familial DNA in Ireland, but having identified the potential parents from offspring, siblings, cousins etc. it must only be a short step to legally connect Baby John to the actual parents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    https://her.ie/news/relative-baby-john-dna-577696

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/kerry-baby-dna-at-centre-of-case-was-voluntarily-handed-over-by-relative-of-baby-john/42406570.html

    These are the articles I read going back about the sibling giving their DNA to the Gardai. Could the gardai have asked them for the DNA for legal purposes and they unknowingly gave it 😱 imagine the shock and how they must feel now that their parents are implicated in a 40year old murder investigation and they had an older brother they never knew about.

    I wonder how much of this was known by the parents immediate families? Like the father’s family.. although I don’t know how this could have been kept secret for so long if it was known. Surely someone would have cracked at some stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Whoever gave the DNA sample that led to the arrest of this couple, the DNA tests which are now at issue are those which the Gardai took from the couple.

    The results of those DNA tests, which were provided to the Gardai within 48 hours, were a match to the DNA of Baby John. It is astonishing if their solicitor is now contesting these results i.e. denying that his clients are the parents. He makes great play of the fact that they gave the samples "voluntarily" but he must have advised them that the Gardai have power to take DNA samples even without consent. He hopes that this case never gets to court (which would be a scandal in itself) and, it seems, his clients want to maintain, despite the conclusive DNA evidence, that they are not the parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    In that case, they could but wouldn't help the Gardai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭oceanman


    my guess is if they were going to be charged with anything it would have happened long before now…



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    No point charging someone with an offence, if you can't show that they were involved in or even aware of the offence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭Deeec


    They may never be charged but they should hang their heads in shame for the rest of their lives for not coming forward and ending Joanne Hayes nightmare. DNA doesnt lie. They may not have been responsible for baby Johns murder but they would have had to have known it was their baby. This was a huge news story for the last 40 years and Joanne Hayes was put through hell. They cannot use the excuse that they did not know or were not aware - ie they had a baby boy ( secretly it would seem), baby was taken away, baby boy found murdered in same county a few days later. Shame on them for remaining silent. I would have had sympathy for them if they had voluntarily came forward but their secret was accidently revealed through science.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    if they were in fear of the person who took the child and were afraid to question their authority. Its not beyond possibility that they believed the boy had been put into care and was in safe hands.

    Was a very different era back then and everything was in hushed tones so its difficult to say that they would known or even suspected anything was a miss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    If someone took the child to put him up for adoption or to put him into care, why wouldn't they do that? Why kill him?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭Deeec


    This lady/couple must have had a secret pregnancy that noone outside the family I assume knew about, so where did they think their baby was going. But a baby boy was murdered at the same time their baby boy was taken away. It would have had to cross their mind that the baby could possibly be theirs when a baby boy was discovered in Kerry and the baby was the same age as their baby. Its my understanding the couple were in their late teens/early twenties - young but old enough to have cop on.

    I get that there may have been a threat at the time from the guilty party but that threat would have reduced over the years. Its not acceptable at all that they remained silent - its shameful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    i honestly don't know, its just we see the world differently now. I'm not making excuses for what happened, just think it is possible, albeit naively, that they didn't join the dots. Or certainly in the early years.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    To be honest, we've no idea what went on, who killed baby John or why.The fact that there haven't been any legal moves on the couple identified by DNA suggests that they were unaware of events. I'd say that we will never find out as tragic as that is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    There are so many questions

    Where was Baby John for the few days he had lived?

    Who was vandalising the grave for over 20 years after the murder until the words ‘I forgive’ were removed from the headstone?

    I don’t think you could live normally after something like this it would have had to have an effect in some form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The grave had been vandalised long before “I Forgive” was put there. I believe the stone had been broken twice before the press/tv covered the story. The undertaker said no matter how many times it got smashed he would keep replacing it. The publicity was the reason it stopped.

    Edit;

    Just had another look and I may have misremembered the sequence of events there. When I get more time I'll look again, sorry.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88,246 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    The dna proved a match but they maintain they are not the parents, was dna illegal obtained from them as I believe the sibling unknowingly offered up as many in the area did freely

    This case baffles as no headway, dpp file sent etc.,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 341 ✭✭john9876


    I suspect that nothing will happen due to lack of evidence.

    The Gardai/DPP will wait for the dust to settle after the 40th anniversary noise and announce that it won't be proceeding when there's a bigger story happening, like an election or something similar to distract the public.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Just a mark of respect for Baby John whose remains were discovered 40 years ago today. I remain wishful that his murderer(s) are named and caught soon.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    This anniversary may be the reason for a very unusual statement from the Garda Press Office today, but it was also an opportunity for the Gardai to respond to the couple's solicitor and his brazen PR campaign, especially his latest claim that the DNA did not prove his clients were the parents.

    “Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,” said one source.

    A file will go to the DPP but the DNA alone won't support a charge of murder. If the couple won't cooperate, the DPP should either prosecute for whatever charge the DPP thinks can stick (failure to register the birth) or the DPP should ask for more evidence i.e. allow this investigation to proceed for as long as it takes. You never know when further evidence might emerge. A guilty conscience is a burden even after 40 years. The baby's murderer(s) - who may not be the parents - should never sleep soundly.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2024/04/14/kerry-babies-gardai-retain-confidence-in-dna-evidence-but-investigators-face-a-steep-challenge/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I think you've misread that article.

    This is the latest statement from the Garda Press Office from that article;

    "Gardaí have maintained silence to date, but this week the Garda Press Office confirmed that “the investigation into the murder of Baby John is continuing and a file will be prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions in due course”.

    Here's the context of the statement you quoted;

    "Garda sources confirmed at the time that DNA tests taken on samples from the couple would be critical in the investigation and it is understood the tests prove conclusively that the couple were the baby’s parents.

    Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,”

    said one source.According to the source, the samples were taken shortly after 9pm on March 23rd, when the man and woman were being processed at Listowel and Castleisland Garda stations."

    That to me reads like an old statement rehashed and nothing to do with Padraig O'Connell's statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 600 ✭✭✭csirl


    Where is the "maybe they thought the baby was put up for adoption" story come from? Is it just idle speculation?

    It was the 1980s, not the 1880s. Parents would have had to sign a load of legal documents for an adoption including a hush hush one via the church. Baby would also have to be registeted. Cant think how any parent would think their child was adopted without the aforegoing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭Stepping Stone


    I am very doubtful that we can believe a word out of the mouths of the parents. They’re delusional to deny any genetic link. That baby was born (presumably in Cahersiveen to the 19yr old mother), lived for 5 days, was taken for a paperless adoption and then a newborn baby boy was found dead 6km away… convienently the mother’s now dead brother is getting the blame. Her father was dead and another Garda who was a neighbour had a daughter who gave a baby up for adoption at the same time. Are we seriously going to believe that they just never suspected anything…

    I can’t believe that any local, especially a Garda would be stupid enough to throw a body in the water and not expect it to reappear quite quickly.

    I have heard that it was known in his family in Killorglin what had happened. They married, had two sons and lived happily ever after until they were finally identified.

    For what they did to the Hayes family, they deserve all that they get. You won’t convince me of their innocence either. The whole thing is too convenient.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88,246 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    It is such a harrowing case, it stays with you, that poor little fella, how anyone could do that to him

    I'm sorry but those parents and solicitor should be ashamed, claiming not their child despite near 100% dna match

    I would love justice for him with his vile scum killer caught

    I don't know him but I can't help thinking what his life could have been like, it is heartbreaking



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I didn't misread the Garda statement. I quoted the same section on the DNA evidence which you highlighted and which directly contradicts the claim made a week earlier by the couple's solicitor. If you think that's just coincidence, let me introduce you to a Nigerian Prince whose funds are tied up due to an unfortunate misunderstanding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    You misunderstood it so, read it again,

    Garda sources confirmed at the time that DNA tests taken on samples from the couple would be critical in the investigation and it is understood the tests prove conclusively that the couple were the baby’s parents.

    “Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,” said one source."

    Easy enough mistake to make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I understood that the Gardai were confirming what they already had said about the DNA. Try reading my posts again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The Garda statement said nothing about DNA.

    Try reading the Times article you linked yourself, slowly this time.

    A quote from "one source" from last year is not " a very unusual statement from the Garda Press Office today, 



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    delete



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