The Kerry Babies Case

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985038#Comment_121985038

Think that's a typo.

It was a full siblings DNA that led them to the couple.

So they obviously remained together after baby John and went on to have more children.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985002#Comment_121985002

Call be skeptical, but I believe the family were targeted.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985465#Comment_121985465

Was it not the sibling was arrested in the states and DNA taken ....it was pretty much a freak event that brought it to light.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985477#Comment_121985477

It sounds freaky alright, too freaky, which is why I'm skeptical.

I don't believe the States connection, how would DNA taken in the States for what I believe was a minor offence be matched to a 40 year old murder in Cahirciveen? If it was the case it must have been the Baby John investigation in Caherciveen that found the link, in other words they went looking.

They knew the family.

https://www.thejournal.ie/kerry-babies-how-arrests-were-made-dna-computer-mapping-6027696-Mar2023/

"Gardaí also obtained a full DNA profile for the deceased child, which meant that investigators could call on certain individuals and ask them to provide their DNA if they suspected they had a link to the case."

Now I don't understand the legalities around familial DNA in Ireland, but having identified the potential parents from offspring, siblings, cousins etc. it must only be a short step to legally connect Baby John to the actual parents.

anonymo203

https://her.ie/news/relative-baby-john-dna-577696

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/kerry-baby-dna-at-centre-of-case-was-voluntarily-handed-over-by-relative-of-baby-john/42406570.html

These are the articles I read going back about the sibling giving their DNA to the Gardai. Could the gardai have asked them for the DNA for legal purposes and they unknowingly gave it 😱 imagine the shock and how they must feel now that their parents are implicated in a 40year old murder investigation and they had an older brother they never knew about.

I wonder how much of this was known by the parents immediate families? Like the father’s family.. although I don’t know how this could have been kept secret for so long if it was known. Surely someone would have cracked at some stage.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983555#Comment_121983555

Chewbacca defence.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985038#Comment_121985038

Sorry, I meant his younger brother that gave the DNA sample.

Caquas

Whoever gave the DNA sample that led to the arrest of this couple, the DNA tests which are now at issue are those which the Gardai took from the couple.

The results of those DNA tests, which were provided to the Gardai within 48 hours, were a match to the DNA of Baby John. It is astonishing if their solicitor is now contesting these results i.e. denying that his clients are the parents. He makes great play of the fact that they gave the samples "voluntarily" but he must have advised them that the Gardai have power to take DNA samples even without consent. He hopes that this case never gets to court (which would be a scandal in itself) and, it seems, his clients want to maintain, despite the conclusive DNA evidence, that they are not the parents.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984964#Comment_121984964

In that case, they could but wouldn't help the Gardai.

oceanman

my guess is if they were going to be charged with anything it would have happened long before now…

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992439#Comment_121992439

No point charging someone with an offence, if you can't show that they were involved in or even aware of the offence.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992526#Comment_121992526

They may never be charged but they should hang their heads in shame for the rest of their lives for not coming forward and ending Joanne Hayes nightmare. DNA doesnt lie. They may not have been responsible for baby Johns murder but they would have had to have known it was their baby. This was a huge news story for the last 40 years and Joanne Hayes was put through hell. They cannot use the excuse that they did not know or were not aware - ie they had a baby boy ( secretly it would seem), baby was taken away, baby boy found murdered in same county a few days later. Shame on them for remaining silent. I would have had sympathy for them if they had voluntarily came forward but their secret was accidently revealed through science.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993202#Comment_121993202

if they were in fear of the person who took the child and were afraid to question their authority. Its not beyond possibility that they believed the boy had been put into care and was in safe hands.

Was a very different era back then and everything was in hushed tones so its difficult to say that they would known or even suspected anything was a miss.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993268#Comment_121993268

If someone took the child to put him up for adoption or to put him into care, why wouldn't they do that? Why kill him?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993268#Comment_121993268

This lady/couple must have had a secret pregnancy that noone outside the family I assume knew about, so where did they think their baby was going. But a baby boy was murdered at the same time their baby boy was taken away. It would have had to cross their mind that the baby could possibly be theirs when a baby boy was discovered in Kerry and the baby was the same age as their baby. Its my understanding the couple were in their late teens/early twenties - young but old enough to have cop on.

I get that there may have been a threat at the time from the guilty party but that threat would have reduced over the years. Its not acceptable at all that they remained silent - its shameful.

prunudo

i honestly don't know, its just we see the world differently now. I'm not making excuses for what happened, just think it is possible, albeit naively, that they didn't join the dots. Or certainly in the early years.

Seth Brundle

To be honest, we've no idea what went on, who killed baby John or why.The fact that there haven't been any legal moves on the couple identified by DNA suggests that they were unaware of events. I'd say that we will never find out as tragic as that is.

anonymo203

There are so many questions

Where was Baby John for the few days he had lived?

Who was vandalising the grave for over 20 years after the murder until the words ‘I forgive’ were removed from the headstone?

I don’t think you could live normally after something like this it would have had to have an effect in some form.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994086#Comment_121994086

The grave had been vandalised long before “I Forgive” was put there. I believe the stone had been broken twice before the press/tv covered the story. The undertaker said no matter how many times it got smashed he would keep replacing it. The publicity was the reason it stopped.

Edit;

Just had another look and I may have misremembered the sequence of events there. When I get more time I'll look again, sorry.

JP Liz V1

The dna proved a match but they maintain they are not the parents, was dna illegal obtained from them as I believe the sibling unknowingly offered up as many in the area did freely

This case baffles as no headway, dpp file sent etc.,

john9876

I suspect that nothing will happen due to lack of evidence.

The Gardai/DPP will wait for the dust to settle after the 40th anniversary noise and announce that it won't be proceeding when there's a bigger story happening, like an election or something similar to distract the public.

Seth Brundle

Just a mark of respect for Baby John whose remains were discovered 40 years ago today. I remain wishful that his murderer(s) are named and caught soon.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017224#Comment_122017224

This anniversary may be the reason for a very unusual statement from the Garda Press Office today, but it was also an opportunity for the Gardai to respond to the couple's solicitor and his brazen PR campaign, especially his latest claim that the DNA did not prove his clients were the parents.

“Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,” said one source.

A file will go to the DPP but the DNA alone won't support a charge of murder. If the couple won't cooperate, the DPP should either prosecute for whatever charge the DPP thinks can stick (failure to register the birth) or the DPP should ask for more evidence i.e. allow this investigation to proceed for as long as it takes. You never know when further evidence might emerge. A guilty conscience is a burden even after 40 years. The baby's murderer(s) - who may not be the parents - should never sleep soundly.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2024/04/14/kerry-babies-gardai-retain-confidence-in-dna-evidence-but-investigators-face-a-steep-challenge/

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018750#Comment_122018750

I think you've misread that article.

This is the latest statement from the Garda Press Office from that article;

"Gardaí have maintained silence to date, but this week the Garda Press Office confirmed that “the investigation into the murder of Baby John is continuing and a file will be prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions in due course”.

Here's the context of the statement you quoted;

"Garda sources confirmed at the time that DNA tests taken on samples from the couple would be critical in the investigation and it is understood the tests prove conclusively that the couple were the baby’s parents.

“Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,”

said one source.According to the source, the samples were taken shortly after 9pm on March 23rd, when the man and woman were being processed at Listowel and Castleisland Garda stations."

That to me reads like an old statement rehashed and nothing to do with Padraig O'Connell's statement.

csirl

Where is the "maybe they thought the baby was put up for adoption" story come from? Is it just idle speculation?

It was the 1980s, not the 1880s. Parents would have had to sign a load of legal documents for an adoption including a hush hush one via the church. Baby would also have to be registeted. Cant think how any parent would think their child was adopted without the aforegoing.

Stepping Stone

I am very doubtful that we can believe a word out of the mouths of the parents. They’re delusional to deny any genetic link. That baby was born (presumably in Cahersiveen to the 19yr old mother), lived for 5 days, was taken for a paperless adoption and then a newborn baby boy was found dead 6km away… convienently the mother’s now dead brother is getting the blame. Her father was dead and another Garda who was a neighbour had a daughter who gave a baby up for adoption at the same time. Are we seriously going to believe that they just never suspected anything…

I can’t believe that any local, especially a Garda would be stupid enough to throw a body in the water and not expect it to reappear quite quickly.

I have heard that it was known in his family in Killorglin what had happened. They married, had two sons and lived happily ever after until they were finally identified.

For what they did to the Hayes family, they deserve all that they get. You won’t convince me of their innocence either. The whole thing is too convenient.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017224#Comment_122017224

It is such a harrowing case, it stays with you, that poor little fella, how anyone could do that to him

I'm sorry but those parents and solicitor should be ashamed, claiming not their child despite near 100% dna match

I would love justice for him with his vile scum killer caught

I don't know him but I can't help thinking what his life could have been like, it is heartbreaking

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018978#Comment_122018978

I didn't misread the Garda statement. I quoted the same section on the DNA evidence which you highlighted and which directly contradicts the claim made a week earlier by the couple's solicitor. If you think that's just coincidence, let me introduce you to a Nigerian Prince whose funds are tied up due to an unfortunate misunderstanding.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021653#Comment_122021653

You misunderstood it so, read it again,

Garda sources confirmed at the time that DNA tests taken on samples from the couple would be critical in the investigation and it is understood the tests prove conclusively that the couple were the baby’s parents.

“Forensic Science Ireland carried out an analysis on the swab samples from both suspects, and the analysis found that the chances of anyone else other than the two suspects being the parents of Baby John were so infinitesimally small as to be irrefutable,” said one source."

Easy enough mistake to make.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021783#Comment_122021783

I understood that the Gardai were confirming what they already had said about the DNA. Try reading my posts again.