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Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    How much of that is due to societal pressure though? Its not that long ago being trans was recognized as a disorder. Arguably it was redefined due to the stigma that can be associated with the term "disorder" rather than any new discoveries in the area.

    Medical professionals also define man and woman in a definite, scientific manner, yet no one on this thread who supports the idea of trans men and trans women can define them, because it clearly flies in the face of what it means to be transgender.

    So which is it? as they can't coexist unless you don't require logic in your definitions and arguments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Anything related to the mind can only be communicated verbally from the patient to the doctor. For any mind related medical conditions no physical evidence exists to tell if the patient is telling the truth. I don't believe GD is a disorder and the medical profession agrees with me. I don't believe in conspiracy theories that medical professions are conspiring to increase the amount of trans people or that there is deliberate misdiagnosis on people of suffering from GD

    I support trans people being able to have sex changes and would refer to them by their preferred pronouns. Do I believe they physically change sex/gender, no. I believe they are transmen or transwomen.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    One of the findings of the Tavistock scandal which saw the NHS' GIDS unit shut down was that medical/psychologist staff were subject to bullying from other staff if they disagreed with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Called transphobic and the usual sort of stuff we've seen on here many times. A significant number - one-third of staff I think - reported this.

    So I'm not quite sure you're correct when you say you don't believe "medical professions are conspiring to increase the amount of trans people or that there is deliberate misdiagnosis on people of suffering from GD". It's not word for word what you describe, but it's similar enough to be very relevant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Do you believe trans women/transmen should be able to compete in sports with biological men/women when there is a physical aspect invovled?

    Do you believe a transwoman/transman should be permitted in traditionally women/mens spaces?


    What is your own opinion on why, in the US at least, the percentages of trans people are increasing significantly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I don't think I mentioned any conspiracy theory? There is immense societal pressure at the moment to "take people at their word"

    The medical agrees with you "right now", less than 10 years ago they disagreed with you. Who knows where they will be in another 10 years.

    The problem is that you don't need a conspiracy when you are effectively relying on self diagnosis. You said yourself that GD is to do with the mind, so then its a mental condition.

    So how do you distinguish a mental disorder from a mental condition if you have to rely on the patient for the only "facts" in the diagnosis and these "facts" are along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable in my body or with my assigned gender"?

    This is further complicated when you are talking about teenagers who never feel comfortable in their body and never more so than today, again largely due to the pressures of social media.

    So trying to decipher all of this input is frankly impossible but I feel that we have fallen on the side of "blind support" rather than actual treatment. There is no other dysphoria or disorder that we would treat in this way, so whats different about GD and why is it suddenly so prominent?

    So what do you define transmen or transwomen as? Are they men and women or are they women and men, respectfully?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I'm not in agreement they should be included in women's sport I'm uncertain how to treat people who have had full sex change operations as regards female only areas as I think it would be dangerous for someone who looks like a woman to be using men's toilet facilities. Perhaps a third gender area could be set aside.

    As I have repeatedly said I have read nothing on why there is an increase so have no idea. Could be more people have knowledge of condition, more doctors involved in diasagnosimg, better diagnosis techniques or as you have said it is more popular. But to come down on one reason without doing any research is just to show an inherent bias.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Most of your paragraphe is for medical professions not for me.

    As to the last question I only believe in male and female genders



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    Given the co-morbities between those who identify as trans and undiagnosed asd and ED in girls it's a no brainer.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    "I don't believe GD is a disorder ; I support trans people being able to have sex changes

    Can you explain how both those things can be true please? How can someone need surgery without having some sort of disorder? How can their bodies be perfect but still somehow wrong?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Medical professions believe a sex change operation is the correct treatment in some cases is all I know

    My opinion on the correct course of treatment doesn't matter as I have not studied in that area. I don't give my opinions on medical matters or the correct form of treatment in general as I have no background in the profession.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    It's not really though, neurodiverse people in general tend to be more like to be LGBT in contrast to neurotypical population.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    No that's not what I asked. You said that YOU don't believe that being transgender is a disorder, but that YOU also believe that people who say they are transgender should be able to have sex change surgery.

    You CLAIM that "the medical profession agrees" with you, but that isn't actually true. Some do, not all - and are they the same ones who also think transgender people need surgery? Maybe not. We know there's disagreement within the medical profession.

    If you have a link to a scientific document where this particular inconsistency has been studied and explained, I'd be very interested to read it. If not, we're left just with your claim to believe these two incompatible things, and I'm asking you how you square those two opinions please?

    Also, are there any other instances in medicine where people with nothing wrong with them are considered to need (ie taxpayer-funded) surgery? Because TBH that sounds unlikely to me. For instance, I feel I really need a breast lift: pregnancies and gravity have played havoc with them. In fact I can show any doctor exactly what's wrong compared to the breasts I had at 20. So, unlike gender dysphoria, they don't even need to take my word for it.

    So can I rock up to a hospital and get that done for free do you think?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    If you are too lazy to google that GD is not considered a disorder I'm not going to do the legwork for you. Ditto that a majority of the professionals in thus field agree that sex change can be a form of treatment. Do you believe there are wildcard doctors performing sex changes for some reason?

    I am somewhat concerned that you place so much value in the opinion of a self described non-medical poster on medical matters. Like an answer from me could direct your actions one way or another.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Sure, if you like. Thanks for confirming that it's just you that believes that civil, adult discussion constitutes hate speech, playing that tired old victim card again.


    Have you tried speaking to any trans people, or reading their articles or books, or listening to their interviews - doing some basic research really? One that I know was beaten and threatened with rape by his father, at around age 12 or 13. So he hid his trans status, did the traditional thing of getting married, having kids, and is now going through hormone treatment as a trans woman. I'm sure you'll find other examples too.

    How will the find the few that are without malice though?

    And yet, your commentary suggests otherwise.

    Is this the old 'autism must be exploding because we're diagnosing more people with autism' theory? If you enable more people to get diagnosed, you get more people diagnosed.

    If you create a safe space for trans kids to speak up about their status, you get more people presenting. It's not rocket science.

    Self ID for trans people came in under the 2015 Act. It's been part of life in Ireland, quietly being used by a tiny number of people, causing no fuss and drama, until we decided to import this UK culture war, probably funded by US far right interests.

    You need doctors for any medical support - hormone therapy, access to surgery, possibly even therapy.

    How do we know they exist if we don't know who they are?

    The irony is that the anti-trans hysteria and social contagion is an imported culture war, probably influenced by US-based far right funding, bringing along some local 'useful idiots' in the tide.

    Self ID for trans people came in under the 2015 Act. It's been part of life in Ireland, quietly being used by a tiny number of people, causing no fuss and drama, until we decided to import this UK culture war, probably funded by US far right interests.

    You need doctors for any medical support - hormone therapy, access to surgery, possibly even therapy.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Posts: 0 Kylan Nice Salami


    “So how do you distinguish a mental disorder from a mental condition if you have to rely on the patient for the only "facts" in the diagnosis and these "facts" are along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable in my body or with my assigned gender"?”

    I think that’s probably the reason behind the intrusive questioning by medical professionals as reported in an early post. To come at it from a number of angles to determine how much is innate transgender, how much comes from anxiety related to being eg a young female who doesn’t like going through the unpleasant trauma of female puberty and suffers additional anxiety, even by teenage standards, as a result. One of the lines of probing would likely be to try and determine that some of the dysphoria isn’t a result of past abuse & trauma, which would need to be addressed.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @Cyrus threadbanned



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I quoted Harvard research. You quoted those lovely people from 'The Heritage Foundation'.

    The Heritage Foundation has engaged in several activities in opposition to transgender rights, including hosting several anti-transgender rights events,[98][99] developing and supporting legislation templates against transgender rights,[100][101][102] and making claims about transgender youth healthcare and suicide rates based on internal research, which are contradicted by numerous peer-reviewed scientific studies.[103]

    A US far right group, funded by tobacco and beer wealth, working hard to spread their culture wars all over the world. Big mates of Trump, surprise, surprise...

    Have you looked at what these organisations have 'achieved' in the States, with withdrawal of trans healthcare, book banning, book burning. I saw a children's book being banned recently because it mentioned that Billie Jean King was a lesbian. Trans people are the weakest link, who can be most easily targeted, and then they're moving onto to gay people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's always funny to see the sudden interest in women's sports from those who never gave a toss about funding or facilities or media coverage or any other aspect of women's sports, until it became an opportunity to have a kick at some vulnerable people.

    Likewise the sudden interest in women's prison from those who never gave a toss about conditions in women's prisons, and the sudden interest in 'keeping women safe'. As Marie Cassidy pointed out recently, the man that women need to worry about is most likely the one they share the bed with - but let's keep hyping up this fictional bogeyman (bogeywoman perhaps) about trans people.

    How do you measure comorbidities of undiagnosed conditions?


    You're at least a decade behind on how the health service works.


    Post edited by AndrewJRenko on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @L.Ball threadbanned



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  • Posts: 0 Kylan Nice Salami


    “Is this the old 'autism must be exploding because we're diagnosing more people with autism' theory? If you enable more people to get diagnosed, you get more people diagnosed.

    If you create a safe space for trans kids to speak up about their status, you get more people presenting. It's not rocket science.”

    In this context I never mentioned about autism increasing because of increased diagnosis. I don’t know about incidence of autism through the decades, though I do have some interest on account of knowing quite a number of people with it and being related to some. And I am neurodiverse myself, seems I have had MS all my life may relating to a banned drug my mother was given during her pregnancy with me. Like thalidomide, it had already been banned in other parts of the world… except little old Ireland.

    Sometimes with distressing sociopaths-medical issues there may be a background context that needs addressing. The administration of the banned drug to my mother recorded on all my medical records as it indicates a possible context of my complex medical history, where none of the pathology I got over the years has run on any side of my family. It is indicated on my reports that the drug in question may, in my case, be responsible for my lifelong issues. That’s why I take more of a close interest in these various issues.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    If you only believe in male and female genders and you also don't believe that people can change gender or sex, then, in your opinion, what is a trans woman?

    From your previous statements, it seems that they can only be a man? Of course you cant say that as you will be called a transphobe and probably banned from the thread, but I genuinely dont see another option, based on your previous statements?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    If that is the case, why would I answer that? 🤔 I'm only against people slagging off or being cruel to trans people.

    I'm not aware what rules exist on boards regarding the trans debate. Perhaps you can give your opinion first on that question 😏



  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    Harvard, where it depends on "context "when you call for the genocide of a people, that Harvard?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    FWIW, I guess my confusion stems from the fact that my beliefs, so far, seem to be aligned with yours.

    Namely that I don't believe one can change their gender or their sex and I don't believe there are more than 2 genders.

    (All of the above excluding the outliers of intersex etc.)


    My personal opinion is that transwomen are people who were born male and for whatever reason, at a point in time, don't see themselves as male. Since I have yet to hear a transperson define either gender, I don't understand what it is that they say they don't feel like, so I clearly don't understand how they can say that they feel more like the opposite gender.

    If someone said to me they they felt more like a giraffe than an elephant I think I would ask them how they know what a giraffe or an elephant felt like before I started working on elongating their neck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    It seems you have disapproved your point then regarding censorship of opinions or bans for having certain types of opinions. I think boards allows a respectful trans debate but you can see that some posters can't act that way and get banned.

    I would agree with your first belief but im not sure what you are saying with your second. Also your analogy of the giraffe and elephant makes my head hurt so I will leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    You've an unusual sense of humour.

    Would you care to give your opinion on the answers to the questions raised from your perspective?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That would involve giving the questions legitimacy, so no.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭sekiro


    In a lot of ways this "debate" reminds me of the Atheists versus Christians debates in the earlier days of the internet.

    Folk not really being clear about definitions at the beginning just causes the conversation to really get out of hand.

    The question of God's existence can have a very different answer depending on the specific definition of "God".

    I suspect that's why many people struggle immediately with a question like "What is a woman?" It starts to lay down some sort of rule or framework for the discussion but it's only going to lead to "trans women are like women but not actually women or maybe at least a distinct subset of women" when the goal seems to be to get to "trans women are women".

    What is a woman?

    What is a trans woman?

    How are those different?

    Are all transwomen women?

    Are all women transwomen?

    Is the only difference between a transwoman and a woman the simple act of a doctor failing to correctly assign a persons gender at birth? Or is there more to it than that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy




  • Posts: 0 Kylan Nice Salami


    I have seen one or two documentaries, a long time ago, about Klinefelter’s Syndrome, caused by an extra X chromosome. In some cases leads to physical and/or mental issues. Some men with Klinefelters may either be transgender or homosexual. There is a very clear-cut identifiable chromosomal reason in these particular individuals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    For the reasons outlined in my post that you quoted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    So the questions aren't legitimate because:

    "It's always funny to see the sudden interest in women's sports from those who never gave a toss about funding or facilities or media coverage or any other aspect of women's sports, until it became an opportunity to have a kick at some vulnerable people.

    Likewise the sudden interest in women's prison from those who never gave a toss about conditions in women's prisons, and the sudden interest in 'keeping women safe'. As Marie Cassidy pointed out recently, the man that women need to worry about is most likely the one they share the bed with - but let's keep hyping up this fictional bogeyman (bogeywoman perhaps) about trans people."


    You are suggesting I have no interest in womens sport outside of trying to kick vulnerable people? The irony alone in that piece of logic in the context of the question is as high as it gets.

    Your attitude towards genuine debate on this topic is astounding.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    To say people don't give a toss about women's sport is ridiculous. Some of our biggest sports stars are women!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you were involved in womens sports, you'd have a good idea about what's happening in your own sports, and what measures are being taken to manage trans participation, instead of coming up with pretend intractable questions that seemingly require inputs from the lads on Boards to be addressed.

    JFC, can you see the context. I said that the people asking these questions about womens sports didn't give a toss about womens sports, just like the people asking the questions about womens prisons didn't give a toss about womens prisons. It's a manufactured, imported argument.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    It's really not manufactured or imported as these issues in women's sport or prison's didn't exist until this topic.

    If you think it has been manufactured who manufactured it? The media barely cover this topic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I didn't ask what was happening in women's sports to manage trans participation or indeed ask specifically about any one sport.

    They are very real and legitimate questions.

    And again, the irony of you stating I am trying to kick vulnerable people when we all know who the vulnerable people are in contact sports or indeed physical interactions between biological men and biological women.


    Your logic here is essentially saying that because I am not trans I should have no interest in this topic. An absolutely ridiculous standpoint to take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,779 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Your logic here is essentially saying that because I am not trans I should have no interest in this topic.

    I didn't say anything within an asses roar of this. I'm not trans yet I have a strong interest in this topic, because I've seen first hand the damage done to extremely vulnerable people by people with the kinds of attitudes seen on these Threads.

    This is yet another fictional invention, one of many here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    So there are no female sports persons who are concerned about trans women in their sports?

    Thats such a nothing argument.

    So I can't be concerned for anyone or anything unless I have direct, personal experience of the issue?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    We'll see!

    It doesn't allow for debate, it allows for pussy-footing around the basic, biological and scientific facts. But if anyone dares to actually point out that the emperor has no clothes on they will be moderated.


    My second point is that its impossible to say "I don't feel like a man, I feel more like a woman" if you don't define what either of those things are. Also, how on earth can anyone say they "feel like a man/woman"?

    I'm a man and I couldn't tell you what it feels like to be a man as I have nothing to compare it to. I certainly couldn't tell you what it feels like to be a woman. Maybe how some women feel about being a woman is exactly how I feel about being a man? Does that make either of us trans?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,313 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    It seems that if he doesn't like them they are illegitimate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I'm not involved in women's sports yet I have a strong interest in this topic because I have seen the damage done to women by biological men.

    Same for women's spaces.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,373 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau



    Can you answer this? I'm going to presume your gender as male going by the name.


    Why do you think you or any man has any right to push for the blurring of boundaries in female safe spaces/refuges/sports etc?


    We men should be shifting over and be ok sharing spaces with trans-women. It's not our right to ask women to make space. It's Male supremacy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,180 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Became mansplaining.

    I don't think anyone other than biological women should have a say in who can access wome- only spaces. It's a bit like abortion - not really a man's business. Or a transwoman's, for that matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,085 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    I will go out on a limb here and say that just allowing someone to head off for gender surgery just because they've decided to want to be the opposite gender is.so far past stupid it beggers belief.


    First off..two genders - male and female. No inbetween. No one day I'm this and the next day I'm that.. nonsense.

    If someone is truly unhappy with their gender then they need proper assessment from a fully licenced professional who is without an agenda.

    Then they need to be over 18.

    Then an as adult if they decide at some time in the future that the gender they have changed to is not for them then they have to realise that the decision they made was theirs and welcome to the real world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    It's incredibly hard to get diagnosed with autism in Ireland. 20 years ago they were only just rolling out programs for kids to get diagnosed. I'm an adult and I only got diagnosed at 48 years old by going private. I tried for a few months to figure out how to get a diagnosis without going private and I couldn't figure it out. It's nearly impossible for an adult to get a diagnosis without going private. Even with kids now there's a huge backlog.

    The reason there's more people with a neurodivergent diagnosis now who are trans is because there's more people with a diagnosis now.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,988 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Bollíx, some of the most passionate drivers of women's sport are "biological men".

    Go to any GAA ground or football ground and see who it is taking the coaching and training.

    You just sound like you have an illogical fear of everyone you don't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Ah here, c'mon - I have a fear of biological men competing with biological women in sports where being a biological man gives you considerable physical strengths relative to being a biological woman. It's fairly simple. There's no point having men and women categories in 90 percent of sports were you to let that happen, never mind the very obvious health and wellbeing issues in play.

    I have no issues with males being involved in female sports - that's a pretty standard thing to happen. As you say, some of the most passionate drivers of womens sports are men. But to put them competing against women??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    but no-one gets reassignment surgery before they're 18. And even then it takes years of treatment before they get to that stage. Reassignment surgery is the very last resort.

    The problem is that it's incredibly hard to get any treatment in Ireland. From the moment a person thinks they might be trans to the point where they get gender reassignment surgery is far too long. And it's excruciatingly hard to get from all the services.

    I'm sure we both agree that there should be rigor in the services, but the services themselves shouldn't be hard to get and there shouldn't be years long waiting lists at each stage.



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