Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

MichaelMedik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512924#Comment_121512924

"no-one gets reassignment surgery before they're 18" ?!

This simply is not true, there are many cases.

Just one well-known case for example : Ex-Mermaids CEO Susie Green's child had reassignment surgery on their 16th birthday, including the removal of their male sexual organs.

Susie Green personally referred children to the U.K.'s Tavistock Clinic - subsequently ordered to shut by the NHS - when their own doctors wouldn't do so.

It's all openly documented in the Sunday Telegraph and Sunday Times' investigations, upheld by the U.K. independent press complaints commission.

The RTE Prime Time episode concerns HSE referrals to Tavistock and Professors O'Shea and Moran's concerns about this.

nachouser

Some numbers for context. So, a tiny proportion of the population.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515154#Comment_121515154

You don't care how disadvantaged the vast majority of female athletes

I can't care about something that is a figment of your imagination.

I have asked for evidence and figures none are forthcoming.

This is actually one of the more hilarious and irrational self fear mongering folly that exists at this moment.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496824#Comment_121496824

By “people who have received surgical intervention too soon”, did the programme include any mention of a recent Supreme Court decision in Japan which ruled mandatory sterilisation as a requirement for legal gender recognition unconstitutional?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/25/victory-transgender-rights-japan

The decision follows European countries being forced to pay compensation to victims of mandatory sterilisation policies which were previously a requirement for treatment and/or legal recognition -

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1YZ0YE/

States in the US are still somewhat behind the curve -

https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-just-japan-many-us-states-require-transgender-people-get-sterilized

If you were looking to understand why the exponential rise in the numbers of patients seeking treatment for gender incongruence which is so debilitating to the degree that they require medical and surgical intervention, taking the mandatory unnecessary surgical intervention off the table could provide one explanation as to why they’re not having to reconsider whether seeking treatment is guaranteed to lead to worse outcomes for themselves.

It’s a tough one, because already medical professionals in the US and Europe are playing catch-up given the wide availability of hormone treatments for those who can afford them, that they’re not having to rely on organisations like Planned Parenthood to provide the treatments on prescription -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1247920

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515302#Comment_121515302

Everyone can read this thread, see your post, and see clearly that you don not care whether non-elite athletes are affected or not. Right from post #665 on when you made it clear that elite level was all that mattered with the following (directly quoting you)

What sports at professional or elite level are trans people cleaning up in?

That's no figment of my imagination. That's your post. And you have continued with that line of argument, and indeed doubled down on your misogyny/elitism by saying that as long as sufficient large numbers of elites by whatever your "standards" are, are not affected then you don't care.

I see you're still incapable of answering any questions yourself. It really does show how threadbare your points are.

Do you have any interest in sport?

Do you think all female athletes should be entitled to the same level of fairness in competition?

If you don't think this is a pressing issue then why are you demonstrating your obsession by posting continuously in this thread?

Are you going to argue that your posting is not obsessive, but that anyone who disagrees with you is?

victor8600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515223#Comment_121515223

Exactly, it is a tiny proportion. Most people have never met a trans person, let alone taken time to talk with them, yet online everyone is an expert in how trans care needs to be delivered and how the "trans movement" corrupts defenseless babies. There are WHO recommendations, let's follow them and leave it at that.

To those (voltchica, looking at you) who say that "gays don't need care, but trans do, so we have the right to say how trans care is delivered", I can only say that we have the society and the civilization precisely to care for all members of society. Leaving aside that there is some gay-specific care (Gay Men's Health Service in HSE) actually.

If there is no (trans, gay, autism, maternity, whatever) care provided by the state, people with agendas will pick up the slack. Do you want the state to be in control of care, or do you want people to seek substandard help from quack doctors, or following advice from internet propagandists, with the state then having to deal with consequences from botched operations and the psychological damage later anyway?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515353#Comment_121515353

Once more.

If this problem is as acute as you claim then elite sport would be littered with trans athletes.

You can't even tell me how many trans athletes compete at non elite level.

Have you any evidence at all to support your self fear mongering?

You are manufacturing outrage for the sake of it.

So the only pertinent question, is why?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515365#Comment_121515365

And yet again you demonstrate your elitism and misogyny, whilst at the same time refusing to answer questions.

ALL female athletes are entitled to equal fair competition, not just elites. Do you disagree with this?

Whether trans athletes happen to compete at elite level or not is entirely irrelevant. If it is unfair for a transwoman to compete in the female sex category then it is unfair to all athletes in the female sex category, whatever level they compete at.

If it is unfair for a male sex athlete to compete in the female sex category in sports then 1 is 1 too many. The total number is irrelevant. You can't even tell me how many trans athletes compete at any level, elite or non-elite.

You clearly have no understanding of sports. You clearly have no understanding of fairness. You're clearly an elitist who only cares whether elite-level athletes are affected or not. It's shocking misogyny.

Please quote any post where I am fear-mongering, and if you can't then it would be good manners to withdraw that accusation. I have no fear of trans people. I certainly have no fear of your elitist misogyny, and am happy to call it out.

If you think endeavouring to ensure fairness in sport is "manufacturing outrage" then that certainly says a lot about you.

What is it you fear about fairness in sport? Why do you have this fear?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514749#Comment_121514749

The danger stems from biological men competing against biological females, but of course you know this.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514834#Comment_121514834

Adherence to reality should always be the starting point.

Indeed it should. If only you would start from this same point in all your arguments regarding transgenderism.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515000#Comment_121515000

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/trans-athlete-sparks-outrage-toppling-womens-powerlifting-world-record-completely-unfair

Her total weight lifted in squat, bench and deadlift resulted in a final score of 597.5 kilograms, which was over 200 kilograms more than her closest opponent, SuJan Gill, who finished at 387.5 kilograms. 

But its all just scaremongering right? Its totally normal for 40 year old competitors to lift 50% more than the rest of the field.

I have seen arguments on this thread encouraging me and others to go out and engage with transgender people so as to learn what their life is life etc; I personally said I didn’t know anybody transgender, at least not for certain, and it was more or less put that there’s lots of such people. Then comes the counter argument that they are a fraction of society, so small that many people wouldn’t know a transgender person or at least be aware they were transgender; the majority of us treat every decent person we encounter with respect and don’t concern ourselves with their gender status or sexuaL preference etc.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515505#Comment_121515505

A huge amount of this thread has been very very far from respectful towards trans people

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513890#Comment_121513890

Tbh I’d recommend taking correlations like that with a grain of salt, for that’s all they’re really worth. Correlations like that are always drawn between groups that come under closer examination in the social sciences. A far less well-known one is the prevalence of autism among atheists for example -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10453845/

That 30% stat is an exaggeration intended to suggest that people who experience gender incongruity, it’s not because they’re transgender, but because they’re autistic, or they’re actually homosexual, or they’re anything but transgender. The situation isn’t helped by people like Simon Baron Cohen and Christopher Gillberg looking to promote their own ideas either:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Gillberg

nachouser

Numbers are numbers, that's why I shared them. I've attached the latest Annual report that I could find. Like anything else in life these days, it's about reality vs online sh*te and fear mongering. In Ireland, there aren't people officially changing their gender so they can go harass women in bathrooms or changing rooms or wherever. It's just not happening. Similarly, there aren't people officially changing their gender so they can excel in women-only sports. Around the rest of the world, yeah, maybe. But it's not a thing here. Like, I'd never pop into the ladies to relieve myself because I'd be worried there would be someone in there that I'd upset and, moreso, I wouldn't want to be known as someone who'd be in the ladies in the first place. The only lads who would do that sort of thing would do it anyway, regardless of whether or not they have a cert claiming they were actually a woman. Which isn't happening in Ireland or it'd be all over the news.

262827_9a1b18eb-cf70-466e-b738-3e2af4202c60.pdf

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515624#Comment_121515624

Whether they excel or not is irrelevant to whether it is fair for them to compete in a particular category. If they don't meet the eligibility criteria to compete in a particular category then it would be unfair to ALL the other athletes in that category if they do compete in that category.

So, specifically, it would be unfair to ALL female sex athletes if a male sex athlete competed in the female sex category in a sport. Whether that male sex athlete excels or not is irrelevant. It is still unfair. The number of male sex athletes competing is also irrelevant. One is one too many. Rules should be enforced for the benefit of all athletes who don't break the rules. The rules should apply to everyone univerally.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515624#Comment_121515624

I know. 8 years later and no issues at all. All of the fear mongering about prisons, toilets, the world caving in, women being erased..... its all proven the fears are not an issue.

Annasopra

Dunno why we are so obsessed about 0.002% of the population.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515696#Comment_121515696

Are there (m)any male to female athletes in Ireland currently doing any of the above? I don't mean to be a d*ck about it but the numbers are so tiny that it's not a thing I can see happening in the near future. Like, circa 600 male to female transitions since 2015 in Ireland. I doubt they're gonna be winning medals or even participating anytime soon.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512532#Comment_121512532

These issues didn't exist? Are you for real? Go read up on Renée Richards and see how this issue was being dealt with fifty years ago without any fuss or drama. It was being dealt with five years ago, after the Gender Recognition Act came into being without any fuss or drama.

But suddenly, we had some Irish media outlets, Irish Times, RTE, Indo picking up on the manufactured crisis from the same UK tabloids that brought you Brexit and anti immigrant hysteria. Did you really not notice where this was coming from?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512579#Comment_121512579

The vast majority of those banging on about trans women in sports aren't female sports persons or indeed aren't female. In general, they're not people who gave a toss about anything to do with women's sports - no concerns about funding, or facilities, or the drop off in participation for 14 year olds or lack of training for referees or lack of access to gyms and programmes. But suddenly, they read up on one or two edge cases in the Daily Heil or the Irish tabloids, and suddenly there is a 'road to Damascus' conversion and it's all 'won't someone please think of the little girls'.

And we have the same scenarios with the people who never cared about how women ended up in prison or how they were treated in prison or what educational opportunities in prison - but again, when they're riled up by one or two edge cases, they're suddenly ever so concerned about women in prison.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512615#Comment_121512615

And where did you see this damage being done to women by men?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512627#Comment_121512627

Again, it is a manufactured argument, one that has lead to many women and indeed girls who choose non-traditional looks, perhaps butch looking or choosing male or generic clothing, being challenged and threatened by self-appointed gatekeepers who think they can tell people where they can pee. Unless you're planning on having someone checking certificates or checking genitals (as they're doing in some parts of the States where far right influences have actually succeeded) at the door of every toilet and every changing room, it's a pointless argument.

Many bathrooms are now unisex or individual cubicles. Many changing rooms are individual cubicles. If men want to invade bathrooms to carry out violence, they don't need to take on a female appearance to do so.

Male supremacy is the violence that men carry out against women every hour of every day, mostly the men who are in relationships with those women - violence that gets zero coverage in these discussions, because we're too obsessed with other people's genitals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512654#Comment_121512654

Strangely enough, the voting rules would disagree with you. What are these 'women only spaces' btw?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512732#Comment_121512732

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the scenario you've pointed out of "just allowing someone to head off for gender surgery just because they've decided to want to be the opposite gender" doesn't exist outside of your twisted imagination.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513597#Comment_121513597

Of all the risks to women in sports, where does competing against trans women rank in terms of probability and impact?

Of all the risks to women in prison, where does being imprisoned with trans rank in terms of probability and impact?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512943#Comment_121512943

Did the scenario of "but anyone that dares to raise an eyebrow is a transphobe, a TERF" happen in this discussion at all?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513890#Comment_121513890

You don't 'spot' autism or ADHD. You diagnose these conditions.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514017#Comment_121514017

Tories gonna Tory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514902#Comment_121514902

If you ACTUALLY want to protect women from harm, you focus on the 99% of violence that comes from cis men, often their partner or close family, rather than obsessing about the tiny percentage of the tiny percentage of trans women who may be violent.

You do ACTUALLY want to protect women from harm, don't you?

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515770#Comment_121515770

Because of the effect on 50% of the population as most of the effect will be on women's rights. We have women's only spaces, like prisons, for a reason but the law has now changed that these aren't single sex any more. Once you change the law you have to accept that something different will happen from then on. I don't think anyone was paying attention when the law was actually changed but now that real life has started to show what the effect of this change means people are starting to see it. We now have transwomen in the women's prison for sexual and violent crimes. Of course that's not to say transwomen are sexual or violent criminals but every demographic has people who commit crimes.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515865#Comment_121515865

You don't 'spot' autism or ADHD. You diagnose these conditions.

Patients who go to phycological services should expect to get a through evaluation, just like if you went to your GP with a suspected broken bone they might take your blood pressure and check to see if there is anything else wrong with you as well.

Affirmative care is about the patient not only diagnosing themselves but choosing the treatment as well.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515202#Comment_121515202

So no scenario of kids from Ireland getting surgery before the age of 18, the scenario that was repeatedly pushed on this thread by those who are into scare mongering - thanks for confirming that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515427#Comment_121515427

The overwhelming danger of violence to females does not happen on the sports field. The major sources from danger are the men in their lives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515505#Comment_121515505

Many of the discussions here, including your repeated scaremongering about kids under 18 getting surgery, was a long way off respectful, and absolutely obsesses about the gender status of a tiny number of people.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515865#Comment_121515865

Irish media has been very slow to cover this topic.

I know about the Richards case and to say there was no fuss or drama is not true as she had to take a court case to play women's tennis. Our understanding of what happens during transition is far more advanced than back then too. Even Richards herself has changed her mind

“Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.” She adds, “There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field. She can get married, live as woman, do all of those other things, and no one should ever be allowed to take them away from her. But this limitation—that’s just life. I know because I lived it.”

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515923#Comment_121515923

We seen it in Tavistock, being kids from here were being sent there it's a possibility yes ....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515923#Comment_121515923

I said it before; I imagine you are a very decent, extremely well principled person in real life, I’ve no doubt about that. In spite of rather persistently “belligerent” posting. In real life I’m likewise a very decent individual, though sometimes belligerent!

I would acknowledge other posters on the same side of the argument are likewise, very nice decent people.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515581#Comment_121515581

I thought the comorbidity thing was used as a possible explanation for the increase in numbers. It's certainly more plausible than the theory that it's because it's easier to be out these days at the same LGBT NGO's say transphobia and homophobia are on the rise.

MichaelMedik

@AndrewJRenko

>So no scenario of kids from Ireland getting surgery before the age of 18, the scenario that was repeatedly pushed on this thread by those who are into scare mongering - thanks for confirming that.

Thank you for confirming that a child from the UK had surgery to remove their male genitalia on their 16th birthday and that nothing in my post was untrue.

As you ask for evidence all the time in this thread, could I ask you please for evidence of your statement that no-one under the age of 18 from Ireland has had this surgery?

As it has happened to a - barely - 16 year old from the UK, why do you assume that it hasn't happened to anyone under 18 from Ireland, considering Ireland has referred cases to the UK?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121515922#Comment_121515922

Where did you get this from?

Affirmative care is about the patient not only diagnosing themselves but choosing the treatment as well.