Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511443#Comment_121511443

How much of that is due to societal pressure though? Its not that long ago being trans was recognized as a disorder. Arguably it was redefined due to the stigma that can be associated with the term "disorder" rather than any new discoveries in the area.

Medical professionals also define man and woman in a definite, scientific manner, yet no one on this thread who supports the idea of trans men and trans women can define them, because it clearly flies in the face of what it means to be transgender.

So which is it? as they can't coexist unless you don't require logic in your definitions and arguments.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511501#Comment_121511501

Anything related to the mind can only be communicated verbally from the patient to the doctor. For any mind related medical conditions no physical evidence exists to tell if the patient is telling the truth. I don't believe GD is a disorder and the medical profession agrees with me. I don't believe in conspiracy theories that medical professions are conspiring to increase the amount of trans people or that there is deliberate misdiagnosis on people of suffering from GD

I support trans people being able to have sex changes and would refer to them by their preferred pronouns. Do I believe they physically change sex/gender, no. I believe they are transmen or transwomen.

cdeb

One of the findings of the Tavistock scandal which saw the NHS' GIDS unit shut down was that medical/psychologist staff were subject to bullying from other staff if they disagreed with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Called transphobic and the usual sort of stuff we've seen on here many times. A significant number - one-third of staff I think - reported this.

So I'm not quite sure you're correct when you say you don't believe "medical professions are conspiring to increase the amount of trans people or that there is deliberate misdiagnosis on people of suffering from GD". It's not word for word what you describe, but it's similar enough to be very relevant

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511535#Comment_121511535

Do you believe trans women/transmen should be able to compete in sports with biological men/women when there is a physical aspect invovled?

Do you believe a transwoman/transman should be permitted in traditionally women/mens spaces?

What is your own opinion on why, in the US at least, the percentages of trans people are increasing significantly?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511535#Comment_121511535

I don't think I mentioned any conspiracy theory? There is immense societal pressure at the moment to "take people at their word"

The medical agrees with you "right now", less than 10 years ago they disagreed with you. Who knows where they will be in another 10 years.

The problem is that you don't need a conspiracy when you are effectively relying on self diagnosis. You said yourself that GD is to do with the mind, so then its a mental condition.

So how do you distinguish a mental disorder from a mental condition if you have to rely on the patient for the only "facts" in the diagnosis and these "facts" are along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable in my body or with my assigned gender"?

This is further complicated when you are talking about teenagers who never feel comfortable in their body and never more so than today, again largely due to the pressures of social media.

So trying to decipher all of this input is frankly impossible but I feel that we have fallen on the side of "blind support" rather than actual treatment. There is no other dysphoria or disorder that we would treat in this way, so whats different about GD and why is it suddenly so prominent?

So what do you define transmen or transwomen as? Are they men and women or are they women and men, respectfully?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511581#Comment_121511581

I'm not in agreement they should be included in women's sport I'm uncertain how to treat people who have had full sex change operations as regards female only areas as I think it would be dangerous for someone who looks like a woman to be using men's toilet facilities. Perhaps a third gender area could be set aside.

As I have repeatedly said I have read nothing on why there is an increase so have no idea. Could be more people have knowledge of condition, more doctors involved in diasagnosimg, better diagnosis techniques or as you have said it is more popular. But to come down on one reason without doing any research is just to show an inherent bias.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511584#Comment_121511584

Most of your paragraphe is for medical professions not for me.

As to the last question I only believe in male and female genders

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511378#Comment_121511378

Given the co-morbities between those who identify as trans and undiagnosed asd and ED in girls it's a no brainer.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511535#Comment_121511535

"I don't believe GD is a disorder ; I support trans people being able to have sex changes" 

Can you explain how both those things can be true please? How can someone need surgery without having some sort of disorder? How can their bodies be perfect but still somehow wrong?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511634#Comment_121511634

Medical professions believe a sex change operation is the correct treatment in some cases is all I know

My opinion on the correct course of treatment doesn't matter as I have not studied in that area. I don't give my opinions on medical matters or the correct form of treatment in general as I have no background in the profession.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511631#Comment_121511631

It's not really though, neurodiverse people in general tend to be more like to be LGBT in contrast to neurotypical population.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511652#Comment_121511652

No that's not what I asked. You said that YOU don't believe that being transgender is a disorder, but that YOU also believe that people who say they are transgender should be able to have sex change surgery.

You CLAIM that "the medical profession agrees" with you, but that isn't actually true. Some do, not all - and are they the same ones who also think transgender people need surgery? Maybe not. We know there's disagreement within the medical profession.

If you have a link to a scientific document where this particular inconsistency has been studied and explained, I'd be very interested to read it. If not, we're left just with your claim to believe these two incompatible things, and I'm asking you how you square those two opinions please?

Also, are there any other instances in medicine where people with nothing wrong with them are considered to need (ie taxpayer-funded) surgery? Because TBH that sounds unlikely to me. For instance, I feel I really need a breast lift: pregnancies and gravity have played havoc with them. In fact I can show any doctor exactly what's wrong compared to the breasts I had at 20. So, unlike gender dysphoria, they don't even need to take my word for it.

So can I rock up to a hospital and get that done for free do you think?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511715#Comment_121511715

If you are too lazy to google that GD is not considered a disorder I'm not going to do the legwork for you. Ditto that a majority of the professionals in thus field agree that sex change can be a form of treatment. Do you believe there are wildcard doctors performing sex changes for some reason?

I am somewhat concerned that you place so much value in the opinion of a self described non-medical poster on medical matters. Like an answer from me could direct your actions one way or another.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510861#Comment_121510861

Sure, if you like. Thanks for confirming that it's just you that believes that civil, adult discussion constitutes hate speech, playing that tired old victim card again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510947#Comment_121510947

Have you tried speaking to any trans people, or reading their articles or books, or listening to their interviews - doing some basic research really? One that I know was beaten and threatened with rape by his father, at around age 12 or 13. So he hid his trans status, did the traditional thing of getting married, having kids, and is now going through hormone treatment as a trans woman. I'm sure you'll find other examples too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510949#Comment_121510949

How will the find the few that are without malice though?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511039#Comment_121511039

And yet, your commentary suggests otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511050#Comment_121511050

Is this the old 'autism must be exploding because we're diagnosing more people with autism' theory? If you enable more people to get diagnosed, you get more people diagnosed.

If you create a safe space for trans kids to speak up about their status, you get more people presenting. It's not rocket science.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511073#Comment_121511073

Self ID for trans people came in under the 2015 Act. It's been part of life in Ireland, quietly being used by a tiny number of people, causing no fuss and drama, until we decided to import this UK culture war, probably funded by US far right interests.

You need doctors for any medical support - hormone therapy, access to surgery, possibly even therapy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511124#Comment_121511124

How do we know they exist if we don't know who they are?

The irony is that the anti-trans hysteria and social contagion is an imported culture war, probably influenced by US-based far right funding, bringing along some local 'useful idiots' in the tide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511135#Comment_121511135

Self ID for trans people came in under the 2015 Act. It's been part of life in Ireland, quietly being used by a tiny number of people, causing no fuss and drama, until we decided to import this UK culture war, probably funded by US far right interests.

You need doctors for any medical support - hormone therapy, access to surgery, possibly even therapy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511584#Comment_121511584

“So how do you distinguish a mental disorder from a mental condition if you have to rely on the patient for the only "facts" in the diagnosis and these "facts" are along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable in my body or with my assigned gender"?”

I think that’s probably the reason behind the intrusive questioning by medical professionals as reported in an early post. To come at it from a number of angles to determine how much is innate transgender, how much comes from anxiety related to being eg a young female who doesn’t like going through the unpleasant trauma of female puberty and suffers additional anxiety, even by teenage standards, as a result. One of the lines of probing would likely be to try and determine that some of the dysphoria isn’t a result of past abuse & trauma, which would need to be addressed.

Ten of Swords

@Cyrus threadbanned

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121509763#Comment_121509763

I quoted Harvard research. You quoted those lovely people from 'The Heritage Foundation'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation#Transgender_rights_opposition

The Heritage Foundation has engaged in several activities in opposition to transgender rights, including hosting several anti-transgender rights events,[98][99] developing and supporting legislation templates against transgender rights,[100][101][102] and making claims about transgender youth healthcare and suicide rates based on internal research, which are contradicted by numerous peer-reviewed scientific studies.[103]

A US far right group, funded by tobacco and beer wealth, working hard to spread their culture wars all over the world. Big mates of Trump, surprise, surprise...

Have you looked at what these organisations have 'achieved' in the States, with withdrawal of trans healthcare, book banning, book burning. I saw a children's book being banned recently because it mentioned that Billie Jean King was a lesbian. Trans people are the weakest link, who can be most easily targeted, and then they're moving onto to gay people.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511581#Comment_121511581

It's always funny to see the sudden interest in women's sports from those who never gave a toss about funding or facilities or media coverage or any other aspect of women's sports, until it became an opportunity to have a kick at some vulnerable people.

Likewise the sudden interest in women's prison from those who never gave a toss about conditions in women's prisons, and the sudden interest in 'keeping women safe'. As Marie Cassidy pointed out recently, the man that women need to worry about is most likely the one they share the bed with - but let's keep hyping up this fictional bogeyman (bogeywoman perhaps) about trans people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511631#Comment_121511631

How do you measure comorbidities of undiagnosed conditions?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511715#Comment_121511715

You're at least a decade behind on how the health service works.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20230790.html

Ten of Swords

@Hamsterchops threadbanned

Ten of Swords

@L.Ball threadbanned

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511857#Comment_121511857

“Is this the old 'autism must be exploding because we're diagnosing more people with autism' theory? If you enable more people to get diagnosed, you get more people diagnosed.

If you create a safe space for trans kids to speak up about their status, you get more people presenting. It's not rocket science.”

In this context I never mentioned about autism increasing because of increased diagnosis. I don’t know about incidence of autism through the decades, though I do have some interest on account of knowing quite a number of people with it and being related to some. And I am neurodiverse myself, seems I have had MS all my life may relating to a banned drug my mother was given during her pregnancy with me. Like thalidomide, it had already been banned in other parts of the world… except little old Ireland.

Sometimes with distressing sociopaths-medical issues there may be a background context that needs addressing. The administration of the banned drug to my mother recorded on all my medical records as it indicates a possible context of my complex medical history, where none of the pathology I got over the years has run on any side of my family. It is indicated on my reports that the drug in question may, in my case, be responsible for my lifelong issues. That’s why I take more of a close interest in these various issues.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511622#Comment_121511622

If you only believe in male and female genders and you also don't believe that people can change gender or sex, then, in your opinion, what is a trans woman?

From your previous statements, it seems that they can only be a man? Of course you cant say that as you will be called a transphobe and probably banned from the thread, but I genuinely dont see another option, based on your previous statements?

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512024#Comment_121512024

If that is the case, why would I answer that? 🤔 I'm only against people slagging off or being cruel to trans people.

I'm not aware what rules exist on boards regarding the trans debate. Perhaps you can give your opinion first on that question 😏

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511885#Comment_121511885

Harvard, where it depends on "context "when you call for the genocide of a people, that Harvard?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512035#Comment_121512035

FWIW, I guess my confusion stems from the fact that my beliefs, so far, seem to be aligned with yours.

Namely that I don't believe one can change their gender or their sex and I don't believe there are more than 2 genders.

(All of the above excluding the outliers of intersex etc.)

My personal opinion is that transwomen are people who were born male and for whatever reason, at a point in time, don't see themselves as male. Since I have yet to hear a transperson define either gender, I don't understand what it is that they say they don't feel like, so I clearly don't understand how they can say that they feel more like the opposite gender.

If someone said to me they they felt more like a giraffe than an elephant I think I would ask them how they know what a giraffe or an elephant felt like before I started working on elongating their neck.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512081#Comment_121512081

It seems you have disapproved your point then regarding censorship of opinions or bans for having certain types of opinions. I think boards allows a respectful trans debate but you can see that some posters can't act that way and get banned.

I would agree with your first belief but im not sure what you are saying with your second. Also your analogy of the giraffe and elephant makes my head hurt so I will leave it there.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512078#Comment_121512078

Weak attempt at diversion

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121511917#Comment_121511917

You've an unusual sense of humour.

Would you care to give your opinion on the answers to the questions raised from your perspective?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512193#Comment_121512193

That would involve giving the questions legitimacy, so no.

sekiro

In a lot of ways this "debate" reminds me of the Atheists versus Christians debates in the earlier days of the internet.

Folk not really being clear about definitions at the beginning just causes the conversation to really get out of hand.

The question of God's existence can have a very different answer depending on the specific definition of "God".

I suspect that's why many people struggle immediately with a question like "What is a woman?" It starts to lay down some sort of rule or framework for the discussion but it's only going to lead to "trans women are like women but not actually women or maybe at least a distinct subset of women" when the goal seems to be to get to "trans women are women".

What is a woman?

What is a trans woman?

How are those different?

Are all transwomen women?

Are all women transwomen?

Is the only difference between a transwoman and a woman the simple act of a doctor failing to correctly assign a persons gender at birth? Or is there more to it than that?