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Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Just have a few marshals out, waving competitors down. ‘Sorry lads, the race is abandoned. Please make your way back to xyz’. Surely every such triathlon/ Ironman has a protocol for abandoning the race? If they don’t, then they shouldn’t be given a permit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88,419 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    They died on the swimming course part, I am sorry but how did the swim go ahead after storm betty, Cork did get a battering with it

    RIP to both individuals

    Post edited by JP Liz V1 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,974 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    It would probably cause more problems with athletes trying to make their way back off course, getting lost, cramping, getting cold, families trying to find competitors etc... Might be better for them to run the planned course, at least they'd be led the right way, have support & end up where they were supposed to end up with food, hydration, change of clothes, nutrition & a lift home.

    If the event was held in a confined area like a stadium or similar you'd be bang on, but these events are spread over a huge area of backroads & main roads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭donaghs


    If it was that "crazy", how did everyone else finish the swim. and then get on a bike and cycle 180k, and then run a bloody marathon?

    Its horrific for the families, but the swim was the first event of the day. It was the START of the whole event. People are seeking a challenge, they train to test themselves on the day.

    Was there any evidence that some different setup would have saved their lives?

    People have mentioned overcrowding. it often heard that the swim phase of triathlons are crowded and its common to be surrounded by others thrashing , getting kicked in the face etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭touts


    I've watched some of the videos of the conditions on social media. Sweet jesus. It doesn't matter how strong or experienced a swimmer is. It was insane to push ahead with it. You can argue that the swimmers have personal responsibility to know their limits but clearly two of them didn't. Organisers have a duty to protect people from themselves. And even if the entire field was made up of Olympic standard swimmers no one should have been left in that water as it would even have been dangerous for rescue crews to be out on boats in those waves. Organisers have an obligation to make the call and not leave it up to the participants.

    In any other country a criminal investigation would have immediately started, the organisers would have been arrested by now and be facing intense questioning overnight before they can collude on their stories and/or forget details. Not here though. In a couple of weeks this will be forgotten and the organisers will be "looking ahead to next year".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,077 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    It could easily be stopped at the change over points. Get out of the water, sorry race is over, get off the bike, sorry race is over. Saying that they couldn't stop the event is BS.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    I've seen the wave video likely everyone else and it was easy to jump to conclusions that it was very rough, however I also saw competitors commenting that once you got past the waves it was pretty standard going. I expected to see the competitors commenting that "they never should have let us out in that" etc but that doesn't seem to be the case (yet).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    The problem with this thread is that one a garda investigation is ongoing and we have no idea what was the cause of death for both individuals and if the weather conditions were a factor and two the vast majority of people here seem to be unfamiliar with triathlons and open water swimming in general.

    The swim phase is always crowded and there is always a bit(sometimes a lot) of physical contact. People intentionally swim close to other gain the benefit of drafting and make navigation easier. Its a contact sport. Whether the swim should have gone ahead is something that will be looked at in the investigation.

    Long Distance triathlons (the iron-man name is a brand) while challenging are completed by tens of thousands of people every year safely.

    Cancelling the event would have been a bad idea. The cycling and running sections have very different and unique risk profiles and the vast majority of competitors would not have been aware of the deaths until the end/well into the race. The gardai and event organisers needed(and still need time) time to investigate the deaths. Asking them to divert resources from this investigation to suddenly manage and get competitors back to the finish line is irresponsible.

    And just again to repeat the deaths are currently under garda investigation and the cause of the deaths is not known.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The chances of not 1 but 2 deaths occurring in the swim portion of the event is very very low - that it happened suggests that some safety protocols were not followed or that the weather conditions contributed to the 2 tragic deaths.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭JeffKenna




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,097 ✭✭✭✭billyhead


    For all we know it could have been a heart attack and the conditions had no impact. Anyone participants know the risks involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    I've seen plenty of competitors saying it was far from standard. As someone from the area who does sea swimming, those numbers going out in those conditions is incredibly dangerous. On top of that there appears to have been additional changes during the swim that made conditions worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,003 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I done the full IM yesterday in Cork, the swim was rough at the beginning as you were swimming against the waves but once we hit the first turn buoy and back towards the lighthouse and to shore the tide was with you so it was fine, now I’ve done many of these events and if your nervous in the water I can definitely see how some would panic in those conditions. RIP the two athletes and my sincere condolences to their families.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,911 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    have to say the mayor of Cork came across poorly on Morning Ireland.

    He dodged hard questions, ignored others, and seemed flippant until the reporter pointed out that 2 men had died during this event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    That was my first thought.

    For all the people saying the sea was too rough, how many of ye are sea swimmers?

    How many are speaking from experience, or just look at a video from the day and jump to a conclusion?

    It's hard to get ideal conditions in Ireland.


    I'm sure the complete facts will come to light, but I would be very surprised if the organisers were at fault.

    RE cancelling the competition, I think they were 3 hours into the event by the time that decision could have been made. I think it was right to keep it going.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,131 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    In any other country a criminal investigation would have immediately started, the organisers would have been arrested by now and be facing intense questioning overnight before they can collude on their stories and/or forget details. 

    This is absolute, unadulterated bullshít. First up, a Garda investigation did began immediately yesterday, as was widely reported in the media. Secondly, there isn't a democratic country in the world that would arrest organisers before the investigation had substantiated a reason to arrest the organisers. Postmortems haven't even been completed yet. Under what Act would you arrest the organisers?

    Saudi Arabia or North Korea might do it, but lets not engage in this ridiculous Paddy bashing for the sake of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    its not that swimming in those conditions is impossible, its that those marshaling it don't have a hope of doing so, so thats where the danger is

    swimming with the tide obviously easier than against it

    getting in and out fraught with risk, no one is used to those conditions



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭patmahe


    Firstly condolences to the families of the men that died. Secondly my thoughts are with the rescue crews who dealt with the situation.

    But just looking at that video sent a chill up my spine, I consider myself a good competent swimmer but I wouldn't have gone into that water to swim 100yds let alone anything more than that. The images make it looks like some sort of military invasion where they had no choice. It would have been extremely difficult to identify someone in difficulty in that sea and although I accept the personal responsibility argument I could imagine if you were there as a competitor and the organisers didn't cancel it, you would assume those responsible knew better and that although it was rough, it was safe.

    As for the event continuing, once you start an event like this its very hard to call it off, a hugely strung out field, the chaos of figuring out the scale of what had gone wrong etc. would mean that by the time cancelling the event even crossed their minds it was probably too late to do so. Its very sad what happened and I'm sure investigations will be carried out, but there are questions to be answered and that video of the start is a scary thing to watch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    I swim daily in the seas off South Kerry , all year round. The seas the last few days have been very rough and choppy with strong onshore winds creating lots of very close together waves. Its been very hard and dangerous to get in to the sea and past the break point of waves. Very few surfers have been going out either as the waves are too messy and rough.

    Its one thing entering the water from a beach.... but from a stone beach like Yoghal with huge boulders to crash back into if you're knocked off your feet, not to mention other competitors I would question how safe it was to go ahead with the swim part in the first place? Was there no recci done on that morning?

    The responsibility for safety/ cancelling in any organised event is with the Organiser surely? It if goes ahead it gives the competitors a sense of trust that everything is ok (which clearly it wasn't yesterday!)

    (Also if you live in Dublin and are training in Sandymount its very different to getting into the Atlantic in Youghal in the aftermath of a storm)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Heres a vid showing the conditions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,548 ✭✭✭valoren


    I was spectating at the start and the swim out to the first turn buoy was rough with the first couple of waves being harsh. These are the waves you see in the media reports. As someone mentioned, once you got to the buoy then, ironically, the conditions were a help since you were swimming with the current/waves. I think it’s the nature/culture of the event itself. You had the swim cancelled in 2019 and you had social media smart asses and trolls saying you’re not an Ironman unless you did the swim. What is this? A biathlon? etc. This was despite people completing the bike and run in horrible conditions ploughing through to the end. There is thus a pressure to include a swim leg albeit a shortened one I feel. In addition you can have the personal pressure on the participants who may feel compelled to participate i.e. everyone knows you’re competing, you might be doing it for charity, you may have travelled with supporters, you’ve spent months training for and preparing for that day etc. All these factors can lead to someone deciding to chance it as well as the idea that on that morning itself if you saw that the race was going ahead and felt like withdrawing because of the conditions then you wouldn’t be getting your money back from Ironman. If the event stays then I feel the swim has to be moved from Claycastle. It is always windy there and the bay would provide some natural protection. Such a course was akin to the initial change to the swim course when planning after Storm Betty hit was a good one but for whatever reason it was moved back to the original.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yeah, heard him. He officiated at the prizegiving too - not very impressive leadership imho.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,058 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    That's a good point.

    Many of the IOM TT Race cancellations / delays are due to conditions not being ideal for the rescue / safety crews. Many times watching in the height of summer and heard the race was delayed because the conditions were unsuitable for the medivac chopper to land, should it need to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,444 ✭✭✭Augme


    Race and event organisers not only have a duty of care towards race participants but also the marshels and safety crew. I feel terribly sorry not just for the men who find and their families but also the marshals who would have be in scene and found both men. I really don't see how the decision to go ahead with the swim can be justified, it seems like it was such an unnecessary risk given the conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    its not uncommon for someone to die on the swimming part of these events. 2 is still statistically possible without any blame falling on the organisers. I wouldnt jump to any conclusions.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,519 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Firstly, we don't actually know that the deaths were anything to do with conditions.

    On the video above, conditions don't look that bad, once beyond the break. I did do sea swimming as well as triathlon - you know the drill if it's too much - roll on your back and arm up. No one was forced into the water, and you always have the option to pull out. I'd more question the applicability of rolling starts with the colder waters we have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    My brother does the Ironman, & has done up to double & treble distance & the Deccaman Triathlon (10 times Ironman race in Hawaii).

    He's always talked about being possibly being caught & pulled underneath the water when the swim starts, it's every man for himself & you could easily get concussion from being hit by a foot, knee or even a head. The canoe Safety Marshalls have a hard time keeping an eye on the competitors, with all the limbs flaying & bodies splashing , making it hard to see whats actually happening underneath the surface.

    Sometimes the swim is in an outdoor pool or lake, perhaps easier from a safety point of view. Often it's by a beach or fast flowing river with steep banks.

    I've seen hundreds jumping in at the same time, some hold back & pick a quieter area to enter, but the macho types at the front will dive full in, if they hit a body behind them, they won't bother worrying about any potential injury being caused.

    RIP to those that lost their lives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭Ardent


    Really? How often has it happened in past years?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    What's the insurance situation with events like this? Do entrants sign disclaimers? I assume the organisers have public liability cover in case participants injure members of the public or damage property when competing. Cork County Council are apparently financial backers of the event.

    You hear of businesses operating in similar outdoor activities up and down the country having difficulty getting insurance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp



    anicdotal but..

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/21/two-men-who-died-in-ironman-event-in-cork-named-locally/

    "rish couple Aoife and Nigel Travers, who are from Castleknock in Dublin but based in Perth, participated in the event. Nigel said that when deaths occur in Ironman events “it is usually in the swim”.

    He said that he knew of a person dying in an Ironman event in France a couple of weeks ago and he believed there was a fatality at a similar event in Germany."

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,519 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    He's always talked about being possibly being caught & pulled underneath the water when the swim starts, it's every man for himself & you could easily get concussion from being hit by a foot, knee or even a head. 

    That's normally in mass or wave starts though - Ironman (and others) use a rolling start. Which eliminates a lot of that, but then there isn't always a chance to acclimatise to the water temp.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    It happens from time to time, we lost one of our own at the Alpe de Huez triathlon only recently. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41194861.html

    Last year in Youghal the swim had similar currents to the turn buoys but there was no onshore wind to whip up the waves. Also there were numerous people over come with the heat on the run leg, the medical tent was full so it can be any number of scenarios. I also saw medical staff treating a spectator for heat stroke last year.

    Reading stories it does appear to be at least one person collapsed exiting the swim from a suspected heart attack.

    I'd be interested to see the DNS numbers though.

    Johnny Wallnutt and team would be taking their lead from the water safety team. Yes, I'd imagine he has overall say on whether it should go ahead or not but hindsight is always 20/20



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Regarding duty of care, a much greater responsibility has to be put on the competitor due to the nature of the event.

    It takes at least two years of training to have the hope of completing this event, and all competitors are aware of sea swimming and the distances involved. Every competitor there has (or should have) swam hundreds of km in all weather conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭Ardent


    Found this excellent article on Ironman fatalities.

    The rate is 23 per 100K competitors. Remove the swimming portion and it drops to 6 per 100K. In other words, the swimming section accounts for 71% of Ironman fatalities.

    All the more reason to ensure optimal sea conditions during a competition.

    https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Triathlon Ireland or similar membership required for all participants. This would cover them to a certain level of personal and public liability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Jeez, from some of the comments in here I was expecting it to be an awful lot worse than that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,581 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I see Twitter is alive with the usual reactionary experts to this that would struggle to walk down to the shops -“why wasn’t it stopped…”- well, apart from the sea swimming part what purpose would stopping the event actually serve? It wasn’t going to suddenly bring the poor guys back to life



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,524 ✭✭✭The Davestator


    Its a sad fact that people die during sporting events and its right that these events proceed. I have taken part in a number of events (Marathons) where someone has died and there is no valid reason for suggesting every event should be stopped if it happens.

    This is separate from the question as to whether the swim should have went ahead.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Sigma101


    Below is a (non-exhaustive) list of deaths at triathlons in recent years. There's a few things that stand out.

    • Deaths at big triathlon events are not uncommon. Even two deaths at the same event have happened a number of times.
    • The prevalence of Ironman events (TM) is apparent and in particular the 70.3 competitions. 
    • Noticeable is the high age profile of the fatalities, with most over 40 and plenty of over 60s and over 70s

    To the best of my knowledge Ironman doesn't cancel events just because of fatalities. The potential of fatalities is built in to these events at this stage, and competitors are aware of it. I don't think it's a question of whether the event should have been cancelled when the tragedy was apparent. The question is whether Cork CoCo should facilitate such events if there's an awareness that there's a not insignificant possibility of a fatality occurring. There's no easy answer to this.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    Perhaps this has been badly worded in the report but I'm not sure giving it a bash while on holidays is the best lead in. He could well have been training for this and a veteran triathlete though.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,734 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    The only issue that I have is that Ironman is a for profit organisation, this wasn't organised by a triathlon clubs etc so in that case a higher responsibility has to be on the organisers.

    But having said that it is an individual event and I'm all for personal responsibility so if people want to compete in such conditions fair play to them.

    Post edited by Montage of Feck on

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    so if 500 people took part they are 20 times over average on deaths

    and even worse, with it just being in the swim



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    sure would you even stop if someone collapsed in front of you if you had a PB on the cards



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    It would make no difference to profits if the swim was cancelled. Refunds from IM are as rare as rocking horse shite and competitors for the 70.3 had the option to withdraw and defer the day before.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭Chris871


    Badly worded, the 70.3 race had been sold out for a good few months. Nobody saw a poster during the week and decided to dive in.

    The stats in that article arent accurate. He's taking the death count in every triathlon worldwide in that period, against only the amount of participants in Ironman events for the same period. Other articles above suggest it to be closer to 1.5/2 per 100,000.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    And therein may lay part of the issue with this event. You need a certain number of entrants to make it viable. Those at the elite end will have trained hard and experienced rough conditions and likely well able to handle themselves and/or make a judgement call.

    But there are often shorter options at these triathlon type events and the bulk of the entrants tend towards these. They make up the numbers and make the event viable overall. These tend to be in older age cohorts and/ or more likely to have mostly trained in the pool for swimming etc.

    Time will tell with the investigation but putting these latter entrants into the sea yesterday mightn't have been the wisest. Who knows, they could have had reservations but felt it was OK to get in as there was safety cover. Whereas if a training day, they'd have looked and said no way.

    Looking at the video above taken off the swim in progress, there's a lot of people in the water and not really that many rescue boats/ kayaks in view. How could they possibly keep an eye on all those swimmers?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,012 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I assume all entrants sign legal documents to make sure that they know they are entering the competition at their own risk due to its dangerous nature etc etc.

    I think part of the appeal of these competitions for people is not just the test of endurance. but the danger aspect. Similar to rallying driving etc.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Sigma101


    The figures give no insights into the possibility of a fatality occuring at an event.

    Ironman claims 170+ events per year. Last year, for instance, there were fatalities at 11 Ironman events. So the probability of a fatality at an Ironman event is around 11//170 or 6.5%. This is the figure that local authorities need to take into account when deciding on whether permission for an event should be granted.

    But once you accept this figure and are aware of the risk then there's no justification for cancelling when a fatality occurs, in my view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭lbunnae


    There are no refunds though , so hard to say it was purely a monetary decision to go ahead with it.



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