Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005098#Comment_121005098

That’s fair.

Who decides what reasonable precautions are?

Northernlily

It seemed like a cocktail of things that could go wrong. Youghal has been unlucky with these events, and no doubt the that played into the minds of the organisers.

From an athlete perspective, to train for an Ironman and have the ability to compete in one is special. These guys train hard and would have been chomping to go. They know the risks. Many of the competitors will be itching for their next event already.

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005108#Comment_121005108

Good question...i don't have the answer to that one.

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005108#Comment_121005108

Not sure but I would think after the second person died most sensible organisations would default to "we may have missed a reasonable precaution. Stop the event!" rather than "Ah sure it'll probably be grand, keep going". At the very least most decent organisations would say as a mark of respect and to assist the investigation we are stopping the event.

It would appear these organisers were neither.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005005#Comment_121005005

This event is not comparable to either of your examples. It’s effectively an athletics challenge event with three disciplines. Cousin of mine did this one a couple of years ago, he’s fit but nothing mad. They’ve become popular, came across one on Achill and ordinary folk in it. Supposed to be marshaled and with safety cover. Things obviously got out of control today.

TheW1zard

Money money money

BrianBoru00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004690#Comment_121004690

I don't see their logic - They're also concentrating all of the competitors together - making it harder to monitor.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005098#Comment_121005098

It is and sure a competitor could have a heart attack or cramp or whatever in benign conditions. I’d think a lot of training for this is done in pools, lakes, sheltered estuaries etc. Wouldn’t be the strongest swimmer myself but know that a few waves can really knock your rhythm and breathing out of kilter if not used to coping with rougher water.

Mehaffey1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005036#Comment_121005036

I agree completely, to the outsider, events always look much more dangerous.

The Irish Youth Cycling Championships were cancelled on Saturday due to course conditions which may have been considered a "soft" decision. I was not there but I do have experience in both the taking part in and marshaling such events. I could 100% see it from the organiser's perspective of no need to take on extra risk of injury/incident.

The comparison/likening with the Isle of Man TT or Everest attempts is a bit of a leap.

magicbastarder

i've just seen the footage - they decided to proceed with a mass lengthy sea swimming race in those conditions? mudderagod.

Xander10

the event not being cancelled after the after news was unforgiveable. Can't think of any sporting event that would have proceeded.

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005198#Comment_121005198

A triathlon is not like a football match. the event takes place in the sea...across a 90Klm bike route and a 20k Running route. How would you cancel it without putting others at risk of injury?

Pipmae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005267#Comment_121005267

Yeah agreed - athletes were scattered all over the routes. It was probably the right call to let it continue.

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005267#Comment_121005267

Jeez

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005198#Comment_121005198

Juventus v Liverpool in 1985 proceeded after 39/40 died……absolutely absurd decision as was this one today…….😡

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005281#Comment_121005281

Jeez what? Enlighten us on how you'd stop the event? the cyclists who are already 20k from Youghal..would you tell them to dismount and walk back?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005306#Comment_121005306

It would be mayhem, there would be panic everywhere, people unsure where to go, people lost on unfamiliar roads. Let the relevant people deal with incident on the beach, and let the rest of the participants carry on. Give them space to organise.

Bmomoran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004692#Comment_121004692

I disagree

The video shows the start of the race.

It was their decision to compete - sure.

However, the organisers charge high entry fees for this event and one expects there to be adequate planning and safety assessment in place.

if the organisers go ahead, then no refunds due - I.e we held the event but you ( the participant) pulled out. This likely pressurises participants to compete.

Failing to cancel, also signals that the conditions are within acceptable safety parameters.

Clearly they were not.

Regardless of swimming ability and individual capability, anybody with any sense, should see that starting a swim in a massive swell with a stone embankment behind is highly dangerous.

Why ?

See below:

• risk of waves pushing you of your feet is hugh
• other swimmers coming behind stand on you / swim over you creating drowning hazard.
• risk of waves crashing you against rocks.
• physical effort of swimming through surf line.
• Visibility is significantly reduced in a swell like this.

All indicators are that the swim should not have happened.

Regardless of whether or not the two deceased participants ( may the RIP) had a medical event or not, this event should not have happened.

The organisers charged fees for their experience in organising this event and they made a bad call today.

Also, interesting to see if Irish Coast Guard were at event - seems to me that maybe the guys standing on rocks were ICG volunteers - be interesting to see if they were involved in the go-ahead approval and if they felt the conditions were appropriate.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005191#Comment_121005191

Keep in mind the footage you're seeing is of the swim start. Yes it looks terrible and yes it was an absolute tragedy two men lost their lives, one I believe of a suspected heart attack at the swim exit. The swim in general wasn't bad it was the entry and the break water that was the issue. These combined with some inexperienced swimmers timing their entry terribly with incoming waves made for the footage being shared. I know plenty that took part today and said the same, tough entry but once out passed the turn it was an easy swim. Also some said it was no place for weak swimmers.

My question would be as these events have become more popular and swim cut offs some what achievable to weak or very weak swimmers in ideal conditions. Should IM now introduce tighter swim cut offs and have a qualifying criteria for their events? I know most OW swim events do stipulate previous experience required with some being more forceful on this than others.

Also if IM know the 70.3 is some what looked at as achievable by relative newbies. Why is the safety team not thinking of the weakest swimmer and operating cut offs/cancellation at that level? It seemed most struggling today were 70.3 swimmers.

Either way a terrible tragedy and thoughts go out to the families involved.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005281#Comment_121005281

I see where you're coming from, but it would be difficult to cancel. Elite athletes would be halfway finished, regular athletes & stragglers mixed between the swim, run & cycle over a large race area.

Due to planned support vehicles & the general strategic support for the event it may have been easier to let it run as planned instead of abruptly pulling everyone off the course & having the logistical nightmare of families picking up runners, cyclists (with no phones) & bikes on small secondary roads, or indeed busy roads, calling swimmers in is almost impossible without dedicated support. So, better to let it run as planned with no plan B in case of the tragic events that unfolded.

I've provided kayak support for loads of these events with my old canoe club & have rescued a good few athletes. These conditions would be difficult.

Looked like a strong shore dump and a high frequency chop. Multiple experienced jet-skiers with surf rescue sleds & one experienced kayaker per five or six swimmers would have been suitable but that's not going to happen, although it might in the future.

Tragic stuff for the families of the two men. My thoughts are with them.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005306#Comment_121005306

Just have a few marshals out, waving competitors down. ‘Sorry lads, the race is abandoned. Please make your way back to xyz’. Surely every such triathlon/ Ironman has a protocol for abandoning the race? If they don’t, then they shouldn’t be given a permit.

JP Liz V1

They died on the swimming course part, I am sorry but how did the swim go ahead after storm betty, Cork did get a battering with it

RIP to both individuals

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005404#Comment_121005404

It would probably cause more problems with athletes trying to make their way back off course, getting lost, cramping, getting cold, families trying to find competitors etc... Might be better for them to run the planned course, at least they'd be led the right way, have support & end up where they were supposed to end up with food, hydration, change of clothes, nutrition & a lift home.

If the event was held in a confined area like a stadium or similar you'd be bang on, but these events are spread over a huge area of backroads & main roads.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

If it was that "crazy", how did everyone else finish the swim. and then get on a bike and cycle 180k, and then run a bloody marathon?

Its horrific for the families, but the swim was the first event of the day. It was the START of the whole event. People are seeking a challenge, they train to test themselves on the day.

Was there any evidence that some different setup would have saved their lives?

People have mentioned overcrowding. it often heard that the swim phase of triathlons are crowded and its common to be surrounded by others thrashing , getting kicked in the face etc.

touts

I've watched some of the videos of the conditions on social media. Sweet jesus. It doesn't matter how strong or experienced a swimmer is. It was insane to push ahead with it. You can argue that the swimmers have personal responsibility to know their limits but clearly two of them didn't. Organisers have a duty to protect people from themselves. And even if the entire field was made up of Olympic standard swimmers no one should have been left in that water as it would even have been dangerous for rescue crews to be out on boats in those waves. Organisers have an obligation to make the call and not leave it up to the participants.

In any other country a criminal investigation would have immediately started, the organisers would have been arrested by now and be facing intense questioning overnight before they can collude on their stories and/or forget details. Not here though. In a couple of weeks this will be forgotten and the organisers will be "looking ahead to next year".

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005267#Comment_121005267

It could easily be stopped at the change over points. Get out of the water, sorry race is over, get off the bike, sorry race is over. Saying that they couldn't stop the event is BS.

3DataModem

I've seen the wave video likely everyone else and it was easy to jump to conclusions that it was very rough, however I also saw competitors commenting that once you got past the waves it was pretty standard going. I expected to see the competitors commenting that "they never should have let us out in that" etc but that doesn't seem to be the case (yet).

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005551#Comment_121005551

The problem with this thread is that one a garda investigation is ongoing and we have no idea what was the cause of death for both individuals and if the weather conditions were a factor and two the vast majority of people here seem to be unfamiliar with triathlons and open water swimming in general.

The swim phase is always crowded and there is always a bit(sometimes a lot) of physical contact. People intentionally swim close to other gain the benefit of drafting and make navigation easier. Its a contact sport. Whether the swim should have gone ahead is something that will be looked at in the investigation.

Long Distance triathlons (the iron-man name is a brand) while challenging are completed by tens of thousands of people every year safely.

Cancelling the event would have been a bad idea. The cycling and running sections have very different and unique risk profiles and the vast majority of competitors would not have been aware of the deaths until the end/well into the race. The gardai and event organisers needed(and still need time) time to investigate the deaths. Asking them to divert resources from this investigation to suddenly manage and get competitors back to the finish line is irresponsible.

And just again to repeat the deaths are currently under garda investigation and the cause of the deaths is not known.

timmyntc

The chances of not 1 but 2 deaths occurring in the swim portion of the event is very very low - that it happened suggests that some safety protocols were not followed or that the weather conditions contributed to the 2 tragic deaths.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005698#Comment_121005698

I suggest you have a read of the Examiner.