Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005724#Comment_121005724

For all we know it could have been a heart attack and the conditions had no impact. Anyone participants know the risks involved.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005698#Comment_121005698

I've seen plenty of competitors saying it was far from standard. As someone from the area who does sea swimming, those numbers going out in those conditions is incredibly dangerous. On top of that there appears to have been additional changes during the swim that made conditions worse.

Marty Bird

I done the full IM yesterday in Cork, the swim was rough at the beginning as you were swimming against the waves but once we hit the first turn buoy and back towards the lighthouse and to shore the tide was with you so it was fine, now I’ve done many of these events and if your nervous in the water I can definitely see how some would panic in those conditions. RIP the two athletes and my sincere condolences to their families.

Beechwoodspark

have to say the mayor of Cork came across poorly on Morning Ireland.

He dodged hard questions, ignored others, and seemed flippant until the reporter pointed out that 2 men had died during this event.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005176#Comment_121005176

That was my first thought.

For all the people saying the sea was too rough, how many of ye are sea swimmers?

How many are speaking from experience, or just look at a video from the day and jump to a conclusion?

It's hard to get ideal conditions in Ireland.

I'm sure the complete facts will come to light, but I would be very surprised if the organisers were at fault.

RE cancelling the competition, I think they were 3 hours into the event by the time that decision could have been made. I think it was right to keep it going.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005553#Comment_121005553

In any other country a criminal investigation would have immediately started, the organisers would have been arrested by now and be facing intense questioning overnight before they can collude on their stories and/or forget details. 

This is absolute, unadulterated bullshít. First up, a Garda investigation did began immediately yesterday, as was widely reported in the media. Secondly, there isn't a democratic country in the world that would arrest organisers before the investigation had substantiated a reason to arrest the organisers. Postmortems haven't even been completed yet. Under what Act would you arrest the organisers?

Saudi Arabia or North Korea might do it, but lets not engage in this ridiculous Paddy bashing for the sake of it.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005738#Comment_121005738

its not that swimming in those conditions is impossible, its that those marshaling it don't have a hope of doing so, so thats where the danger is

swimming with the tide obviously easier than against it

getting in and out fraught with risk, no one is used to those conditions

patmahe

Firstly condolences to the families of the men that died. Secondly my thoughts are with the rescue crews who dealt with the situation.

But just looking at that video sent a chill up my spine, I consider myself a good competent swimmer but I wouldn't have gone into that water to swim 100yds let alone anything more than that. The images make it looks like some sort of military invasion where they had no choice. It would have been extremely difficult to identify someone in difficulty in that sea and although I accept the personal responsibility argument I could imagine if you were there as a competitor and the organisers didn't cancel it, you would assume those responsible knew better and that although it was rough, it was safe.

As for the event continuing, once you start an event like this its very hard to call it off, a hugely strung out field, the chaos of figuring out the scale of what had gone wrong etc. would mean that by the time cancelling the event even crossed their minds it was probably too late to do so. Its very sad what happened and I'm sure investigations will be carried out, but there are questions to be answered and that video of the start is a scary thing to watch.

mykrodot

I swim daily in the seas off South Kerry , all year round. The seas the last few days have been very rough and choppy with strong onshore winds creating lots of very close together waves. Its been very hard and dangerous to get in to the sea and past the break point of waves. Very few surfers have been going out either as the waves are too messy and rough.

Its one thing entering the water from a beach.... but from a stone beach like Yoghal with huge boulders to crash back into if you're knocked off your feet, not to mention other competitors I would question how safe it was to go ahead with the swim part in the first place? Was there no recci done on that morning?

The responsibility for safety/ cancelling in any organised event is with the Organiser surely? It if goes ahead it gives the competitors a sense of trust that everything is ok (which clearly it wasn't yesterday!)

(Also if you live in Dublin and are training in Sandymount its very different to getting into the Atlantic in Youghal in the aftermath of a storm)

Padre_Pio

https://youtu.be/hvinOcUR6xw

Heres a vid showing the conditions.

valoren

I was spectating at the start and the swim out to the first turn buoy was rough with the first couple of waves being harsh. These are the waves you see in the media reports. As someone mentioned, once you got to the buoy then, ironically, the conditions were a help since you were swimming with the current/waves. I think it’s the nature/culture of the event itself. You had the swim cancelled in 2019 and you had social media smart asses and trolls saying you’re not an Ironman unless you did the swim. What is this? A biathlon? etc. This was despite people completing the bike and run in horrible conditions ploughing through to the end. There is thus a pressure to include a swim leg albeit a shortened one I feel. In addition you can have the personal pressure on the participants who may feel compelled to participate i.e. everyone knows you’re competing, you might be doing it for charity, you may have travelled with supporters, you’ve spent months training for and preparing for that day etc. All these factors can lead to someone deciding to chance it as well as the idea that on that morning itself if you saw that the race was going ahead and felt like withdrawing because of the conditions then you wouldn’t be getting your money back from Ironman. If the event stays then I feel the swim has to be moved from Claycastle. It is always windy there and the bay would provide some natural protection. Such a course was akin to the initial change to the swim course when planning after Storm Betty hit was a good one but for whatever reason it was moved back to the original.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005769#Comment_121005769

Yeah, heard him. He officiated at the prizegiving too - not very impressive leadership imho.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005820#Comment_121005820

That's a good point.

Many of the IOM TT Race cancellations / delays are due to conditions not being ideal for the rescue / safety crews. Many times watching in the height of summer and heard the race was delayed because the conditions were unsuitable for the medivac chopper to land, should it need to.

Augme

Race and event organisers not only have a duty of care towards race participants but also the marshels and safety crew. I feel terribly sorry not just for the men who find and their families but also the marshals who would have be in scene and found both men. I really don't see how the decision to go ahead with the swim can be justified, it seems like it was such an unnecessary risk given the conditions.

silverharp

its not uncommon for someone to die on the swimming part of these events. 2 is still statistically possible without any blame falling on the organisers. I wouldnt jump to any conclusions.

Macy0161

Firstly, we don't actually know that the deaths were anything to do with conditions.

On the video above, conditions don't look that bad, once beyond the break. I did do sea swimming as well as triathlon - you know the drill if it's too much - roll on your back and arm up. No one was forced into the water, and you always have the option to pull out. I'd more question the applicability of rolling starts with the colder waters we have.

purplepanda

My brother does the Ironman, & has done up to double & treble distance & the Deccaman Triathlon (10 times Ironman race in Hawaii).

He's always talked about being possibly being caught & pulled underneath the water when the swim starts, it's every man for himself & you could easily get concussion from being hit by a foot, knee or even a head. The canoe Safety Marshalls have a hard time keeping an eye on the competitors, with all the limbs flaying & bodies splashing , making it hard to see whats actually happening underneath the surface.

Sometimes the swim is in an outdoor pool or lake, perhaps easier from a safety point of view. Often it's by a beach or fast flowing river with steep banks.

I've seen hundreds jumping in at the same time, some hold back & pick a quieter area to enter, but the macho types at the front will dive full in, if they hit a body behind them, they won't bother worrying about any potential injury being caused.

RIP to those that lost their lives.

Ardent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006033#Comment_121006033

Really? How often has it happened in past years?

Large bottle small glass

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/coach-blog/athlete-deaths-in-triathlon-and-how-to-prevent-them/#:~:text=Of%20the%20135%20deaths%20and,occurred%20during%20post%2Drace%20recovery.

https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785

These are worth a read. Death during swim isn't uncommon.

In the absence of full information a rush to judge is unfair on all concerned.

Furze99

What's the insurance situation with events like this? Do entrants sign disclaimers? I assume the organisers have public liability cover in case participants injure members of the public or damage property when competing. Cork County Council are apparently financial backers of the event.

You hear of businesses operating in similar outdoor activities up and down the country having difficulty getting insurance.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006109#Comment_121006109

anicdotal but..

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/21/two-men-who-died-in-ironman-event-in-cork-named-locally/

"rish couple Aoife and Nigel Travers, who are from Castleknock in Dublin but based in Perth, participated in the event. Nigel said that when deaths occur in Ironman events “it is usually in the swim”.

He said that he knew of a person dying in an Ironman event in France a couple of weeks ago and he believed there was a fatality at a similar event in Germany."

Macy0161

He's always talked about being possibly being caught & pulled underneath the water when the swim starts, it's every man for himself & you could easily get concussion from being hit by a foot, knee or even a head. 

That's normally in mass or wave starts though - Ironman (and others) use a rolling start. Which eliminates a lot of that, but then there isn't always a chance to acclimatise to the water temp.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006109#Comment_121006109

It happens from time to time, we lost one of our own at the Alpe de Huez triathlon only recently. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41194861.html

Last year in Youghal the swim had similar currents to the turn buoys but there was no onshore wind to whip up the waves. Also there were numerous people over come with the heat on the run leg, the medical tent was full so it can be any number of scenarios. I also saw medical staff treating a spectator for heat stroke last year.

Reading stories it does appear to be at least one person collapsed exiting the swim from a suspected heart attack.

I'd be interested to see the DNS numbers though.

Johnny Wallnutt and team would be taking their lead from the water safety team. Yes, I'd imagine he has overall say on whether it should go ahead or not but hindsight is always 20/20

Padre_Pio

Regarding duty of care, a much greater responsibility has to be put on the competitor due to the nature of the event.

It takes at least two years of training to have the hope of completing this event, and all competitors are aware of sea swimming and the distances involved. Every competitor there has (or should have) swam hundreds of km in all weather conditions.

Ardent

Found this excellent article on Ironman fatalities.

The rate is 23 per 100K competitors. Remove the swimming portion and it drops to 6 per 100K. In other words, the swimming section accounts for 71% of Ironman fatalities.

All the more reason to ensure optimal sea conditions during a competition.

https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006126#Comment_121006126

Triathlon Ireland or similar membership required for all participants. This would cover them to a certain level of personal and public liability.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005912#Comment_121005912

Jeez, from some of the comments in here I was expecting it to be an awful lot worse than that.

road_high

I see Twitter is alive with the usual reactionary experts to this that would struggle to walk down to the shops -“why wasn’t it stopped…”- well, apart from the sea swimming part what purpose would stopping the event actually serve? It wasn’t going to suddenly bring the poor guys back to life

The Davestator

Its a sad fact that people die during sporting events and its right that these events proceed. I have taken part in a number of events (Marathons) where someone has died and there is no valid reason for suggesting every event should be stopped if it happens.

This is separate from the question as to whether the swim should have went ahead.

Sigma101

Below is a (non-exhaustive) list of deaths at triathlons in recent years. There's a few things that stand out.

• Deaths at big triathlon events are not uncommon. Even two deaths at the same event have happened a number of times.
• The prevalence of Ironman events (TM) is apparent and in particular the 70.3 competitions. 
• Noticeable is the high age profile of the fatalities, with most over 40 and plenty of over 60s and over 70s

To the best of my knowledge Ironman doesn't cancel events just because of fatalities. The potential of fatalities is built in to these events at this stage, and competitors are aware of it. I don't think it's a question of whether the event should have been cancelled when the tragedy was apparent. The question is whether Cork CoCo should facilitate such events if there's an awareness that there's a not insignificant possibility of a fatality occurring. There's no easy answer to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_triathlon_fatalities