Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006982#Comment_121006982

But this posts says you are clueless what's actually involved. A quick Google search will provide that information in your post but you obviously haven't done a triathlon or much open water sea swimming. The issue is you have a lot of people here who have no experience of triathlons or serious open water swimming in general.

The fact is deaths happen in every type of event. Take for example Gaelforce west. Nearly 2 years ago an experienced participant(they had a done the event multiple times previously to the best of my knowledge) died from a heart attack and the top of a mountain 2/3km from the finish line. It was an absolute tragedy but Gaelforce was blameless. They did everything they could. Unfortunately the heart attack happened at the worst possible place on the course and tragically only about 2/300 meters from the start of the decent to the finish line. The person also received CPR on the spot from competitors with a medical background.

Gaelforce west has taken place both in 2022 and 2023 and had no major issues. That's despite Croagh Patrick returning this year which is arguably a more dangerous climb that the climb used in 2021. Thankfully for them they didn't have to deal with faux outrage.

Until the relevant investigations have finished people should not be assigning blame or cause. It's incredibly disrespectful to everyone involved. It's very disrespectful to use 2 people's deaths to have a rant a subject and event that a person is clueless on.

sporina

for people who participate in such events, maybe there's a consensus that if a fatality occurs, that the show shud go on,.

I dunno - not into such events myself

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007504#Comment_121007504

This is classic attack the messenger type of stuff. Because you don't like the message.

I'm quite familiar with how these events are run, the marketing about them and the type of entrants they attract. The Ironman only differs from several others in that the course is more challenging. That as quoted above, 1200 entrants took on the 'half Ironman' this weekend, should tell you that this is not super human territory.

I'm also quite familiar with risk assessment in related matters. I don't believe for a minute that the organisers could guarantee the safety of entrants on the swim in those sea conditions yesterday. Do you? And if they couldn't, then serious questions have to be asked.

Of course accidents happen and people take ill and so on. It is often norm that when entrants or spectators die at sporting events here, that the event is curtailed, as much as a matter of respect as anything for the dead. Why was that not the case yesterday - are Ironmen too macho??

magicbastarder

re the 'people enter these knowing they're going to be tough, you have to take responsibility for your own safety' argument - surely the point is that a lot of the entry fee goes on providing a helicopter view on safety that a single individual would not possess? someone starting out - especially on a swim - might not be aware of hazardous conditions ahead. it's precisely the job of the organiser to address that aspect.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007504#Comment_121007504

I'm curious as to who conducts those investigations?

The organisers looked at Saturday's conditions and postponed the race. They looked at Sunday's conditions and went ahead with changes.

Just wondering who will be the experts \ body to make the call on whether the organisers followed best practices with Sunday's decision.

magicbastarder

the issue could be that regardless of what an official investigation concludes, the outcome will be ultimately decided by the insurance companies.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007670#Comment_121007670

This has been done on the thread already.

It would be a nightmare to stop the event with competitors stretched out through a massive course, some on foot, some on bikes, none with phones all needing lifts, some needing bike transport from unknown points in the course. It takes a while to come to the conclusion that someone has deceased, there would have been considerable time with resuscitation efforts. The race would have been on for a long time at that stage.

Paidin Mhaire

Not sure how comparable your example re:GaelForce - There are inherently far greater risks and potential risks with a sea swim versus running/climbing, including increased cardiovascular work/stress, risk of being struck/kicked by a fellow competitor, greater isolation/ inaccessibility from rescuers monitoring and getting to a distressed participant, less liklihood of a fellow competitor assisting, they have enough to do to manage themselves.

There was another point made elsewhere regarding revenue intake for such events, that monies are rarely refundable to competitors thus a decision to cancel the competition has no relationship to money. I don't agree. A substantial amount of money was taken in for this event from competitors. An organisation as experienced as was involved here would be very aware of potential reputational damage ( perceived or otherwise) should the event not take place. The pressure to proceed with the 2 events simultaneously on Sunday would have to be significant, especially considering many customers had their event postponed from the day before.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007670#Comment_121007670

You don't have a message.

The only facts we presently know are that 2 people tragically died doing a long distance triathlon in Youghal yesterday. Thats it.

There is an investigation ongoing. Any talk about death rates, safety, weather etc are speculation.

If you really cared about the 2 people involved you would let the gardai, organisers and other relevant bodies complete their investigations and then comment on those reports. Only when those reports are completed is it fair to comment. However by that stage it'll be out of the news headlines and will only be read by those actually involved in triathlons and similar events.

jasonb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007670#Comment_121007670

I don't think the event continued because "Ironman are too macho" for it to stop. I did the Dublin Marathon in 2006, and unfortunately a runner died of a heart attack during it. There was no talk of stopping the race because of it, and no talk afterwards that it should have been stopped out of respect. It was just viewed as what it was, a tragic event.

It's one thing stopping an event in one location (like a track meet) because of a medical emergency, but it's another thing entirely to do so when the event is spread out all over a town or city. The logistics would be a nightmare to do that. And I'm pretty certain even at football matches there have been cases of spectators having medical emergencies and dying in the stands, and the game isn't stopped, even though it would be easy to tell everyone in the ground that the match has been abandoned.

Of course, it's one thing having a medical emergency at an event like this, it's an entirely different conversation if someone has died due to a safety issue with the race, and other participants in the race might still fall foul to that same safety issue. But as of yet we don't know what happened here, so we don't know if either of these two tragic deaths were due to safety issues/fault from the organisers, or some other reason that the organisers had absolutely no control over, and wouldn't be expected to have control over.

patob

One of the competitors was on Newstalk at lunchtime, very experienced swimmer and triathlete, says swim should not have taken place and has massive regret about doing it. Completely traumatised from seeing one of the dead lads after the swim.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007694#Comment_121007694

1. There was a red warning on that coast on Friday night

2. The most turbulent waves are along the shoreline

3. It's a long open water sea swim on an exposed Atlantic shoreline, come prepared in terms of knowledge and skill for that

4. It was cancelled Saturday morning

Considering all of that if you are unaware of possible hazardous conditions Sunday, you have no business turning up

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007844#Comment_121007844

And with due respect, you are jumping in with two feet without looking and where it's not warranted. Read the first post - all I have stated is that serious questions arise for the event organisers. And they do - two people died on their watch. There will be reports and lessons to be learnt or not. I'll be surprised if the event returns to Youghal without modification, not least with the need to get local marshals etc But who knows - money talks. I'll also be surprised if there are not serious insurance complications going forward for typical similar events in Ireland inc ones that are inherently less risky. Numbers may be limited and entry costs rise etc. Look at the situation motor bike racing is in down south.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007972#Comment_121007972

It was cancelled Saturday morning.

So by running it Sunday morning, that sends the message to competitors the conditions are deemed safe enough to run the event.

It's not the case the organisers let the competitors make the decision regardless of risk.

The key question is what criteria did the organisers use to make that determination and did they follow correct safety protocol. Or indeed, are there any - I assume there are some criteria.

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007984#Comment_121007984

There were local Marshall's involved. Water safety was provided by local organisations and I seen a number of coast guard vehicles at the event.

CuriousCucumber

Two things

Should the race have been stopped when 2 people died?

If I died during an event, I wouldn't want the event to be halted/postponed/cancelled.

What good is that for me or my family?

Also, I would have known the risks when I signed up for an Iron Man. This isn't a parkrun.

I also would have known how much training everyone has put in. Let them complete the race

Should the swim ever have taken place?

As a seasoned sea swimmer, and water safety advocate, the video of the start line looked like bad conditions.

But, I also know that videos can be deceiving. Everyone taking part in a full iron man, or 70.3 iron man should be extremely comfortable in open water. If they are not, they're putting themselves, and others at risk, and shouldnt be taking part

From talking to someone who did the Iron Man yesterday, the first 200m were difficult, but once you got through the waves, conditions were much better.

I think they probably should have staggered the swim a bit more, if thy thought it was safe to go ahead.

Paidin Mhaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007999#Comment_121007999

I disagree. The arguments on this thread I find thought provoking and somewhat informative. I think discussion should continue now, particularly while experiences of competitors/ observers are fresh in the memory, It is far from pointless

You say let's await the reports. What reports ? Famously on another discussion site a busy thread existed regarding the tragic Rescue helicopter crash off Belmullet in 2017. Some posters strenuously requested the discussion to be terminated pending publication of the official report. We patiently wait for same.

2 men are dead, men who paid handsomely to a professional entity experienced in the management of such events for the opportunity to participate. No one argues that no personal culpability exists when deciding to enter the water yesterday. The idea however that the organisers will definitely assign 100% culpability to the participants and none to themselves is not credible.

We await with interest the organisers position on what happened.

Paidin Mhaire

I'm wrong, the AAIU did produce a report on the helicopter crash

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008075#Comment_121008075

Yes there were marshals - see #17 on this thread: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004790/#Comment_121004790

And the video of part of the swim posted earlier today.

You'd have to have great sympathy for them particularly if volunteering.

Were there enough? Not going by local testimony above?

Would you volunteer again if you thought you'd be given that responsibility to deal with those conditions?

Paidin Mhaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008226#Comment_121008226

In Nov 2021

joey100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008238#Comment_121008238

Sorry I misread your post to take it you were saying next time they should have local Marshall's rather than they may have challenges getting local Marshall's.

prunudo

Should the race have been stopped when 2 people died?

If I died during an event, I wouldn't want the event to be halted/postponed/cancelled.

What good is that for me or my family?

Also, I would have known the risks when I signed up for an Iron Man. This isn't a parkrun.

I also would have known how much training everyone has put in. Let them complete the race

This would be my thoughts too, if the worst were to happen to me at an event, i would hate for other competitors to be forced to stop. By all means if they wanted to pull up so be it, but would hate for the plug to be pulled due my demise.

Canyon86

I was down there myself as a spectator, and i noticed a lot of the safety personnel couldnt see those who needed assistance due to the heavy waves and the sheer volume of contestants, it was madness down there, at one stage the crowd were actively trying to scream for help for this one swimmer who wasnt been seen to, it was scary

I saw multiple racers being pulled ashore to safety, even saw swimmers turning right around back to the start, such an unfortunate situation and RIP to both swimmers

FYI for anybody looking for more info on the days events.Newstalk have a podcast up today about it, (an account from a contestant).Red FM and 96 FM also have podcasts up

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008147#Comment_121008147

To disagree is perfectly fine but you entirely missed my point presumably as you were so busy trying to make your point about another thread.

What reports? As you later mention your interest in awaiting the organisers position. The reports you await will be investigations by the Garda and I assume the HSA and also the organisers.

I'm not sure you have added anything here on than a random opinion to contradict mine and to be honest these are the kind of posts I find pointless.

I should say I'll await the reports now. I have heard enough opinion and rumour on culpability from both participants/former participants/spectators and of course the most vocal the arm chair experts.

iwillhtfu

Statement released from TI - https://www.triathlonireland.com/news/triathlon-ireland-statement/?fbclid=IwAR0tpLLhJVDRLRfpV_38xRShjFfegdutf9C_jLBrFCU1s4zjEZH-OMlWwQU

This seems to be both damning and contradictory in equal measure. TI certainly distancing themselves from this

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009144#Comment_121009144

Jesus that's damming

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009144#Comment_121009144

Trouble ahead..

iwillhtfu

I'd feel for Johnny Wallnutt now. IM are certainly going to be looking for a scapegoat here.

prunudo

I'm always weary of an organisation who comes out soon after an incident and before all reports are formed that they are whiter than white. Its a form of arrogance that nothing ever bad could happen on their watch, and they're trying to distance themselves early on. This will get messy.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009213#Comment_121009213

Yep my thoughts also, I can't see the benefit in such a strong statement unless IM have apportioned blame to TI behind closed doors. IM are no fools and this could well blow back on TI. TI either sanctioning the races or they're not and at a minimum I hope they have all of their paper work in order.