Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

Furze99

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0820/1400656-cork-ironman/

This was reported this morning and RIP to the two men who died in the swim part of an Ironman competition this morning. Our sympathies to the families of these men and their friends and also to the volunteers manning the event.

Doubtless there will be serious questions to be asked of the organisers and if they arranged sufficient rescue boat coverage for a field that would spread out during the swim.

What I found very odd though, was that the event carried on with participants cycling and running. It'd be normal enough in bike racing or motor rallies etc for the event to be cancelled when there are fatalities.

Personally I don't think I could possibly just carry on as if nothing happened. Perhaps the competitors weren't aware of what had happened behind them but they could easily have been told.

Serious questions for the organisers....

Completely agree with this!

I can't understand why the swim wasn't cancelled or even reduced to a smaller distance!

Yes they shortened the distance but surely the sea was too rough to swim with any ease?

And again, blatant disregard for participants safety just hours after a severe storm

caused havoc across the country! The 'it won't happen here' mentality strikes again!

eightieschewbaccy

Suspect the swim didn't get cancelled cause it previously got cancelled two years back. So it was half pr to go ahead with it. Definite questions around it and it feels very off continuing it after two deaths.

Rebelbrowser

Might be best not to jump to conclusions. I've been told, freakish as it seems, that they were both medical emergencies, not drownings, with one dying ever before the event commenced. Second hand info admittedly. RIP both anyway. Agree they will get a lot of grief for continuing but I think in the uber macho world of Iron-man that is probably what you do. A nuts event IMHO I hasten to add....

Edit - Have seen 9pm news since. My information must be wrong. Waves looked bad too. This story could run for a while....

Mogeely

The Swim shouldnt have happened as the current is dangerous at the best of times. The man who died in his 60s probably was going to happened but the man in his 40s would probably have been okay only for the whole lot of them were left into the water together rather than delaying the half until 10. He wasn't far from the shore and probably got a kick that knocked him out if less swimmers were in the water he would have be spotted sooner. Also I'm hearing another person has been killed off the bike.

07Lapierre

The swim was shortened so they could concentrate the safety crews closer together. The 70.3 was also mover from the Saturday to the Sunday. In short they took reasonable precautions.

Princess Calla

I'll be honest and say I know feck all about the competition bar the basics.

However does personal responsibility not come into it?

It was their choice to train and compete. From what I understand it's very grueling and puts a massive strain on the body between competing and training. Neither of them were "young".

It was also their choice to compete on a day of a storm.

This "culture" of blaming everyone and anyone needs to stop. People need to learn to make their own risk assessment and accept the consequences of that too.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004621#Comment_121004621

Oh I agree, best not to jump to conclusions. If someone collapsed enroute to event, that's a different matter. That sea looks rough in the event photo and there was a strong wind blowing today, I wouldn't have been getting in for a dip there I think.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004690#Comment_121004690

Not really, looking at the Facebook plenty of people were struggling and felt unsafe in the water because of the increased numbers.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004692#Comment_121004692

With respect, that's not quite how it works at an organised event.

If you want to go off on yer tod or with friends and swim in open water or climb cliffs etc, that's fine - you take care of yourselves and responsibility for your own safety.

The reason people are attracted to organised events and pay fees, is two fold - first to compete against like minded people and two, that it's organised and there is safety backup. The entrant offloads some of the risk and expects the organiser to be able to cope with safety coverage. You don't expect to die when you enter an organised event like this.

Mogeely

Put in Cathal Shaw Ironman youghal into Facebook and have a look at the conditions that people were expected to Swim in. I live in the locality and know how dangerous the sea is in Youghal on a good day the currents are crazy there. It wasn't fit to dip your toes in it today never mind swim in it.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004621#Comment_121004621

All the Irish newspapers are stating that both men died in the water while competing in the event.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

There was a mam called in a nearby beach a few weeks ago on a "calm" day.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

Mad looking - strong sea running. How many rescue boats did they have out? And how did the organisers think they could monitor all entrants in that rough sea?

Could be the end of Ironman type competitions here in Ireland for quite a while.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004692#Comment_121004692

don't forget that the swim is the first event though; they should be reasonably fresh and well rested getting in.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

Some serious swell there, mad to host a comp in those conditions

Mogeely

My wife and brother in law are volunteering today. My brother in law met his neighbour earlier who is in an awful state as she was on the kayak that found the man in his 40s. So many people in the water with both events together hard to see who was seriously struggling before it was too late.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

Looks pretty rough.. I do wonder if it's a lot worse than previous years' conditions.

It's very hard to understand why the competition wasn't stopped.

Widdensushi

Surely anyone who wasn't comfortable with the conditions didn't have to partake, it's ironman so it's not meant to be easy, it's very sad but people have a personal responsibility,we can't always blame the organisers etc.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004814#Comment_121004814

Based on the comments of participants, conditions were worse than 2019 which had swim cancelled. Plus the overlapping of two events added to it.

trashcan

Saw the report on the news and the sea did look incredibly rough. I know people are talking about personal responsibility, but surely the organisers have a responsibility to make sure the event is safe.

TheRiverman

I don't know anything about this event, but saw the report on RTE News. It looked incredibly dangerous.

zetor 4911

Organisers have serious questions to answer here.

elperello

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1693355869873029470/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1693355869873029470&currentTweetUser=rtenews

Definitely looks very rough.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310093/two-die-in-the-ironman-at-youghal

Isle of Mann TT. Everest. Ridiculous thread.

Mehaffey1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004990#Comment_121004990

Jesus that is awful. I don't have any sea swimming experience but that does look excessive. Yes there does have to be a personal choice but I'd not be swimming in that.

Pipmae

BIL did the 70.3 one and said the swim was horrendous. It's not his first rodeo either. He's done full Ironman races previously, some abroad.

His neighbour, who is a member of his athletic club (Fingal), helped to pull one of the men who died from the water. Shocking tragedy. I don't know anymore than that - I didn't want to press him as he understandably was upset.

The 70.3 race was supposed to go ahead yesterday and was postponed to today due to Storm Betty. So both races went ahead the same day.

The Irish Examiner had the names of the deceased on their article about 90 mins ago but I see they've edited it to take them out.

May they RIP.

prunudo

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I saw a post earlier (posted prior to event and incident) from Ironman organisers about an update to the schedule and the sea looked calmer so maybe it was an evolving situation and the conditions were getting worse as the event progressed.

The rise in popularity of these events has brought them more into the general populations sights but the reality is, they are a form of extreme sports.

And whether it is road racing, rallying, mountain climbing, diving, skidiving, even cycling or horse riding, etc etc, they all contain levels of risk of injury and death. In competion, most competitors know this, its in the back of their minds, its not talked about, but its there. Its part of their draw, the attraction, the sense of doing something outside the comfort zone.

If the organisers were negligent then there should be repercussions, but partipants must also enter these events with their eyes wide opens and accept personal responsibility.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005007#Comment_121005007

Here's the thing... Perhaps if you had experience then it wouldn't look as excessive?

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004731#Comment_121004731

No one was “expected” to swim. They signed up and went into the water of their own free will. They weren’t marched in at gunpoint

07Lapierre

Sea swimming is risky. The organisers have a duty to take all reasonable precautions to ensure participants safety. The question is … did they take all reasonable precautions in this case? Remember people do die while participating is sporting events every now and then. Even if the conditions were perfect…there still could have been a fatality.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005098#Comment_121005098

That’s fair.

Who decides what reasonable precautions are?

It seemed like a cocktail of things that could go wrong. Youghal has been unlucky with these events, and no doubt the that played into the minds of the organisers.

From an athlete perspective, to train for an Ironman and have the ability to compete in one is special. These guys train hard and would have been chomping to go. They know the risks. Many of the competitors will be itching for their next event already.

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005108#Comment_121005108

Good question...i don't have the answer to that one.

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005108#Comment_121005108

Not sure but I would think after the second person died most sensible organisations would default to "we may have missed a reasonable precaution. Stop the event!" rather than "Ah sure it'll probably be grand, keep going". At the very least most decent organisations would say as a mark of respect and to assist the investigation we are stopping the event.

It would appear these organisers were neither.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005005#Comment_121005005

This event is not comparable to either of your examples. It’s effectively an athletics challenge event with three disciplines. Cousin of mine did this one a couple of years ago, he’s fit but nothing mad. They’ve become popular, came across one on Achill and ordinary folk in it. Supposed to be marshaled and with safety cover. Things obviously got out of control today.

TheW1zard

Money money money

BrianBoru00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004690#Comment_121004690

I don't see their logic - They're also concentrating all of the competitors together - making it harder to monitor.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005098#Comment_121005098

It is and sure a competitor could have a heart attack or cramp or whatever in benign conditions. I’d think a lot of training for this is done in pools, lakes, sheltered estuaries etc. Wouldn’t be the strongest swimmer myself but know that a few waves can really knock your rhythm and breathing out of kilter if not used to coping with rougher water.

Mehaffey1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005036#Comment_121005036

I agree completely, to the outsider, events always look much more dangerous.

The Irish Youth Cycling Championships were cancelled on Saturday due to course conditions which may have been considered a "soft" decision. I was not there but I do have experience in both the taking part in and marshaling such events. I could 100% see it from the organiser's perspective of no need to take on extra risk of injury/incident.

The comparison/likening with the Isle of Man TT or Everest attempts is a bit of a leap.

magicbastarder

i've just seen the footage - they decided to proceed with a mass lengthy sea swimming race in those conditions? mudderagod.

Xander10

the event not being cancelled after the after news was unforgiveable. Can't think of any sporting event that would have proceeded.

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005198#Comment_121005198

A triathlon is not like a football match. the event takes place in the sea...across a 90Klm bike route and a 20k Running route. How would you cancel it without putting others at risk of injury?

Pipmae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005267#Comment_121005267

Yeah agreed - athletes were scattered all over the routes. It was probably the right call to let it continue.

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005267#Comment_121005267

Jeez

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005198#Comment_121005198

Juventus v Liverpool in 1985 proceeded after 39/40 died……absolutely absurd decision as was this one today…….😡

07Lapierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005281#Comment_121005281

Jeez what? Enlighten us on how you'd stop the event? the cyclists who are already 20k from Youghal..would you tell them to dismount and walk back?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005306#Comment_121005306

It would be mayhem, there would be panic everywhere, people unsure where to go, people lost on unfamiliar roads. Let the relevant people deal with incident on the beach, and let the rest of the participants carry on. Give them space to organise.

Bmomoran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004692#Comment_121004692

I disagree

The video shows the start of the race.

It was their decision to compete - sure.

However, the organisers charge high entry fees for this event and one expects there to be adequate planning and safety assessment in place.

if the organisers go ahead, then no refunds due - I.e we held the event but you ( the participant) pulled out. This likely pressurises participants to compete.

Failing to cancel, also signals that the conditions are within acceptable safety parameters.

Clearly they were not.

Regardless of swimming ability and individual capability, anybody with any sense, should see that starting a swim in a massive swell with a stone embankment behind is highly dangerous.

Why ?

See below:

• risk of waves pushing you of your feet is hugh
• other swimmers coming behind stand on you / swim over you creating drowning hazard.
• risk of waves crashing you against rocks.
• physical effort of swimming through surf line.
• Visibility is significantly reduced in a swell like this.

All indicators are that the swim should not have happened.

Regardless of whether or not the two deceased participants ( may the RIP) had a medical event or not, this event should not have happened.

The organisers charged fees for their experience in organising this event and they made a bad call today.

Also, interesting to see if Irish Coast Guard were at event - seems to me that maybe the guys standing on rocks were ICG volunteers - be interesting to see if they were involved in the go-ahead approval and if they felt the conditions were appropriate.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005191#Comment_121005191

Keep in mind the footage you're seeing is of the swim start. Yes it looks terrible and yes it was an absolute tragedy two men lost their lives, one I believe of a suspected heart attack at the swim exit. The swim in general wasn't bad it was the entry and the break water that was the issue. These combined with some inexperienced swimmers timing their entry terribly with incoming waves made for the footage being shared. I know plenty that took part today and said the same, tough entry but once out passed the turn it was an easy swim. Also some said it was no place for weak swimmers.

My question would be as these events have become more popular and swim cut offs some what achievable to weak or very weak swimmers in ideal conditions. Should IM now introduce tighter swim cut offs and have a qualifying criteria for their events? I know most OW swim events do stipulate previous experience required with some being more forceful on this than others.

Also if IM know the 70.3 is some what looked at as achievable by relative newbies. Why is the safety team not thinking of the weakest swimmer and operating cut offs/cancellation at that level? It seemed most struggling today were 70.3 swimmers.

Either way a terrible tragedy and thoughts go out to the families involved.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005281#Comment_121005281

I see where you're coming from, but it would be difficult to cancel. Elite athletes would be halfway finished, regular athletes & stragglers mixed between the swim, run & cycle over a large race area.

Due to planned support vehicles & the general strategic support for the event it may have been easier to let it run as planned instead of abruptly pulling everyone off the course & having the logistical nightmare of families picking up runners, cyclists (with no phones) & bikes on small secondary roads, or indeed busy roads, calling swimmers in is almost impossible without dedicated support. So, better to let it run as planned with no plan B in case of the tragic events that unfolded.

I've provided kayak support for loads of these events with my old canoe club & have rescued a good few athletes. These conditions would be difficult.

Looked like a strong shore dump and a high frequency chop. Multiple experienced jet-skiers with surf rescue sleds & one experienced kayaker per five or six swimmers would have been suitable but that's not going to happen, although it might in the future.

Tragic stuff for the families of the two men. My thoughts are with them.