The roads logjam

30-07-2023 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918529#Comment_120918529

Here you go

Hibernicis · 31-07-2023 12:15am

None of those received construction funding approval during Ryan's term.

31-07-2023 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918738#Comment_120918738

You stated

I do not believe construction approval has been given for any of these during Ryan's term of office.

As illustrated, that is not the case.

Hibernicis · 31-07-2023 12:37am

This is getting silly. Which ones received construction approval during his term ?

spacetweek · 31-07-2023 3:11pm

“The latest list I could find of projects underway”

You must know that TII’s website is years out of date and Oireachtas questions reveal that probably 5% of that list will move to construction by 2030 so long as the Greens have any say over roads.

marno21 · 31-07-2023 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921268#Comment_120921268

A large chunk of them are minor schemes as well, many for safety reasons. Road safety not an issue for these people unless it involves reducing speed limits of course.

But why bother argue when cars bad.

marno21 · 22-09-2023 4:07am

A new one. Kerry Green rep says that local authority representatives shouldn’t be bothering Eamon Ryan about roads projects he’s obstructing because he’s too busy trying to run 3 Departments

https://www.radiokerry.ie/podcasts/kerry-today/time-to-think-trains-september-21st-2023-348152

9 mins in

marno21 · 29-09-2023 10:52am

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/09/29/tensions-rise-over-roads-spending-as-fine-gael-and-fianna-fail-press-eamon-ryan/

Cookiemunster · 29-09-2023 12:09pm

When his own junior minister is leveling these accusations at him at Cabinet, you know he's problem.

29-09-2023 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171971#Comment_121171971

2.6 billion will be spent on roads this year going by that article. That is the alloted amount to be spent.

I'm not seeing the issue

marno21 · 29-09-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172376#Comment_121172376

That’s total Dept of Transport capital spending across the department. Not on roads

Capital spending on new national roads is around €240m in 2023 and €145m in 2024

29-09-2023 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172503#Comment_121172503

I didn't realise so much was going towards new roads

Regardless, there's a sizable chunk being spent on roads

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/2381e-626-million-for-regional-and-local-roads-announced/

Not to mention the near half billion recently announced for the N5.

Roads are not shy of investment, quite the opposite based on figures like those.

spacetweek · 29-09-2023 2:47pm

I wouldn't count €626 million on regional and local roads as much really. That's just keeping them paved - steady state stuff.

KrisW1001 · 01-10-2023 10:30am

It's still a cost, and it still has to come out of the DoT roads budget.

cjpm · 05-10-2023 6:03am

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/failure-to-invest-in-road-projects-could-lead-to-77-deaths-over-next-five-years-transport-body-warns-eamon-ryan/a1836048566.html

Thread should be renamed Roads Logjam due to possibly the worst Government in States history giving Transport Ministry to party of idiots in order to buy their support.

Seth Brundle · 05-10-2023 7:54am

I'd like to see the methodology used by TII. It is worrying if they predict 6 fatalities on the N4 between Leixlip and Maynooth given that it is not the N4 but M4. However, 6 fatalities within a 5 year window along a stretch that hasn't had any fatalities seems a strange and unusual jump. They'd hardly be making up the numbers, would they?

marno21 · 05-10-2023 8:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196071#Comment_121196071

If the M4 is congested as it is, it means that people will take alternative routes to avoid congestion on the M4. This includes the old N4 (R148) and any other feasible alternative route to complete their journey. The roads not labelled M4 are less safe and many of them include rat runs on by roads and through residential areas. Having traffic on these routes will increase risk to pedestrians and cyclists on these routes in addition to adding more general traffic to these unfit roads.

Sure, not widening the M4 will keep volumes lower on the M4 but the idea that it reduces net traffic along that corridor is disputable.

marno21 · 05-10-2023 8:59am

Four stretches of road were flagged in the NDP 2018 proposal for being particularly bad for head on and fatal head on collisions:

The N2 between Ardee and Emyvale

The N4 between Mullingar and Rooskey

The N20 along its entire undivided length

The N22 between Ballincollig and Farranfore

On these stretches, there were 6 projects proposed in the NDP. One is built (N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney), one is in planning (M20) and four were defunded by the Minister (N2 x2, Farranfore-Killarney and the N4 Mullingar-Longford). The N2 in north Monaghan has been refunded by money from the EU Connecting Europe facility which will be matched by the Department of Transport.

It's all well and good saying that reducing speed limits will solve all our road safety issues but if these routes are being flagged for head on collisions and the improvement works are being defunded it's a bit rich talking about road safety.

Sam Russell · 05-10-2023 9:21am

Well they made up the name of the road, so who knows.

Norteño · 05-10-2023 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196204#Comment_121196204

My thoughts exactly.

Chris_5339762 · 05-10-2023 10:38am

...and let me add that the Ballyvourney - Macroom section of the N22 was planned and pretty much ready to go before the Roads Logjam began. The Greens have already come out and said they wouldn't have done it as built themselves. Which is bananas assuming you couldn't fit two buses past each other on one of the really twisty bits because of an ESB pole poking into the road.

marno21 · 06-10-2023 12:26am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41241601.html

Limerick’s Patrick O’Donovan rightly points out that the N24 between Limerick and Waterford remains a concern and does need upgrading. The project between Limerick Junction and Cahir is still being funded but it appears will be phased. The 55km between Waterford and Cahir is limping through route selection

Norteño · 06-10-2023 8:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199738#Comment_121199738

In other news, Greens reject the reality we all live in.

OUT OUT OUT!!!

Leonard Hofstadter · 10-10-2023 8:02pm

Not a single new road project mentioned in Budget 2024.

Says it all really. The sooner the Greens are gone, the better for all of us.

10-10-2023 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220271#Comment_121220271

Not sure you understand what the budget is for if you are expecting specific roads to be mentioned in it

marno21 · 11-10-2023 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220398#Comment_121220398

Specific roads projects are often mentioned in budget speeches, see here example from Budget 2021

The naming of individual roads projects in the budget is not a signalling of overall roads funding though.

It's been a pretty good few weeks for the roads programme, all things considered. N5 contract awarded, M28 contract gone to tender, N56 final phase gone to tender. Donegal TEN-T to go to ABP before year end and M21 to tender to further move things on.

11-10-2023 1:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221707#Comment_121221707

Specific roads projects are often mentioned in budget speeches, see here example from Budget 2021

Every day's a school day

marno21 · 11-10-2023 1:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221765#Comment_121221765

Never a truer word spoken

Jayuu · 14-10-2023 8:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220271#Comment_121220271

Just because things aren't specifically mentioned in the budget speech doesn't mean stuff isn't being progressed. As marno21 has pointed out there's quite a lot of stuff happening still.

Even though they are far from my party of choice a part of me slightly hopes the Greens get back into the next government if only to annoy a lot of posters here who seem to think that every single road issue that ever happens in the country is somehow part of a vast conspiracy on their behalf.

cjpm · 14-10-2023 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235819#Comment_121235819

You obviously don’t know anyone working in TII

Jayuu · 15-10-2023 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121236492#Comment_121236492

Do you, and if you do what inside knowledge do you have to share?

marno21 · 20-10-2023 8:53am

Leo Varadkar: That is one particular budget line. There is also funding through the Road Safety Authority and there is funding through local authorities as well. We will be doing a review of the national development plan allocations in the next couple of weeks. I would anticipate that will involve an uplift for road projects. I can guarantee the Deputy that it is not the case that road projects are not going ahead. In the next couple of weeks we will open the new bypass of Macroom and Ballyvourney.

Election mode incoming.

KrisW1001 · 20-10-2023 4:20pm

An election is a year out at least, and in any case, a cynical politician would not push projects this close to an election, because start of works on any of them would be in the term of the next Dáil, with no guarantee of who will lead that government.

It's good to see any review being done though, and the recent judicial appointments should help along any schemes stuck in appeals.

31-10-2023 4:37pm

When spending on road projects is not the road project spending you deem important you get angry because you want spending on other road projects 🤷‍♂️

https://twitter.com/OConnorOisin/status/1719272577527328886

To be honest I have zero issue with a load of bypasses being built. The only caveat I would add is there is a missing piece of the jigsaw in that there should be a follow-on plan for every single location that has one, to reduce the impact of the car in said towns and villages i.e. widen footpaths, add bike lanes, use one-ways, create pedestrian spaces etc. That is not happening and that is a big loss imho

marno21 · 31-10-2023 9:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306288#Comment_121306288

This is happening with the Slane bypass -> www.n2slanebypass.ie

The easy fudge here will be to leave the NDP as it is (as was done in 2021) and let the next Minister, Ryan or whoever, fund as appropriate. Removing projects from the NDP will only cause major arguments, and leaving them in there and trickle funding them keeps Ryan happy and also gives the appearance that something is being done despite it moving at a snails pace. Cancelling them outright attracts negative political attention.

I should point out that many of the projects for the scrapheap are flagged as being priority on safety grounds and I expect this to be thrown back at him.

31-10-2023 9:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121307781#Comment_121307781

That Slane plan is honestly not bad. I haven't seen that before so thanks for the link. Its a fantastic improvement.

Hopefully a sign of things to come in the future with bypasses. It should be a default requirement to be honest

L1011 · 01-11-2023 8:02am

It's s project with long standing Green opposition, so exactly the type you need to avoid touching to avoid being accused of interfering.

marno21 · 01-11-2023 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121308899#Comment_121308899

Not sure that's a valid concern, he had no trouble mothballing the Glen of the Downs upgrade for example.

Pete_Cavan · 01-11-2023 1:56pm

I don't have an issue with prioritising bypasses, the problem is that bypasses like Ardee and N72 Mallow seem to be dragged out unnecessarily. If something is being "prioritised", then fund it adequately and push ahead with it.

Ryan does have a point regarding the NDP. There are too many projects with an unnecessarily big scope which need to be slimmed down. N4 Mullingar - Roosky and N17 Knock - Collooney are good examples. N24 east of Cahir could also be revised and focus on going east of Cahir (bypassing Clonmel) or west of Pilltown (bypassing CoS) once there is genuine efforts made to deliver.

road_high · 01-11-2023 6:53pm

Why do they need to be slimmed down? These schemes are the bare minimum necessity on roads with unacceptable high accident rates. Ryan has no point whatsoever and is coming at it from a purely ideological “green” angle - Roads = bad

L1011 · 01-11-2023 7:06pm

"slimming down" the N4 plan for the sake of Ryan's hurty feelings would be mad. It would be very unlikely to save money once the required safety upgrades were done to the remaining bits of single carriageway left for starters, and would provide a fraction of the benefits.

Pete_Cavan · 01-11-2023 8:09pm

There is no justification for spending half a billion building a new road between Mullingar and Roosky. That has nothing to do with Ryan. It isn't going to happen no matter who is the Minister so no point in including it in the NDP, put the focus on things which are achievable.

AndrewJRenko · 01-11-2023 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220271#Comment_121220271

You don't speak for 'all of us'.

roadmaster · 01-11-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121310180#Comment_121310180

Did TII not screw up the Ardee job themselfs. Fencing and site clearence had being completed and funds were ready to go for full construction but then locals conplained about lack of access as there concerns had not being listened to.

Then TII started disccussions with locals it took time and then the money that was allocated for the road was spent else where

https://droghedalife.com/news/tds-differ-on-decision-to-review-ardee-bypass

timmyntc · 01-11-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121312000#Comment_121312000

Even a modest scheme would cost several hundred million nowadays - cost inflation on these projects is embedded now. We will never go back to the era of 100m or less for national roads projects.

corm500 · 02-11-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121312000#Comment_121312000

"There have been 20 fatalities and over 30 serious crashes, as well as over 200 other collisions on a midlands road since 2008.

Longford Westmeath TD Joe Flaherty revealed the figures during an "impassioned plea" to the Transport Minister to re-instate funding for the long-awaited N4 Mullingar to Roosky upgrade."

There is your justification.

Seth Brundle · 02-11-2023 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314691#Comment_121314691

There is your justification.

Tragic as those fatalities are, how many of them were along the N4 Mullingar to Roosky section?

How many of them would not have happened on an upgraded version of the N4?

And finally, extending your logic, will there be no further road traffic fatalities or collisions in the Midlands once this section of road is upgraded?

Westernview · 02-11-2023 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121314691#Comment_121314691

And based on past evidence 7 more fatalities are predicted along the Longford-Mullingar section over the next 5 years. (in addition to 11 serious injury cases). That section alone merits an upgrade whatever about the extension to Roosky.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-chiefs-predict-77-deaths-unless-these-18-stretches-of-road-nationwide-are-upgraded/a1836048566.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121315999#Comment_121315999

"How many of them would not have happened on an upgraded version of the N4? And finally, extending your logic, will there be no further road traffic fatalities or collisions in the Midlands once this section of road is upgraded?"

Sounds like a classic case of whataboutery there. Clearly a new road will be designed to reduce a large number of those deaths regardless of what the final figure would be. And are you seriously arguing against an upgrade of a dangerous road if it doesnt eliminate all fatalities on other roads in the region? I can't think of any road anywhere that could achieve that feat.

Seth Brundle · 02-11-2023 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316073#Comment_121316073

My post had nothing to do with whatabouterey. A midlands TD claims that there were fatalities and collisions on modlands roads so the midlands needs the N4 upgrade. I'm not disputing the N4 upgrade but the TD's logic (and by repeating it, @corm500's logic) is that the N4 upgrade would have a significant impact on collsiions and fatalities across all roads in the midlands.

Given this claim by the TD and corm500, is there any data to actually back it up?

Westernview · 02-11-2023 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316120#Comment_121316120

I read it that the TD was referring to the N4 only when he said "a midlands road" but I could be wrong. If 7 fatalities are predicted over the next 5 years it seems reasonable to assume that the 20 fatalities he mentioned could have occured on the N4 Mullingar-Roosky stretch in the close to 15 years since 2008. I don't have the data but I presume that the TII are working off hard data when they have it so high up the list of unsafe roads.

The roads logjam

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