The roads logjam

Chris_5339762 · 29-06-2023 11:30am

He needs to get off the back of the N40 Cork North Ring.

You can argue all you want about sustainable transport, but the N40 North Ring will be a monumental, glaring gap in the network once the M28 and M20 are done. You'll have Galway - Ringaskiddy as motorway with a pootle of 5km through residential Blackpool at the tail end of it.

Pete_Cavan · 29-06-2023 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781394#Comment_120781394

Of your list, GRR can almost certainly be forgotten about. N4 CoS and the N21 bypasses may not have cleared the planning process in time. The N/M20 is unlikely to progress as a single project.

On the N4/N17 corridors, I was saying that something other than the currently envisaged projects should be done as both are at least a decade away from being delivered.

I don't see anything happening at GotD on N/M11, trying to do something there effectively kills the project.

marno21 · 30-06-2023 10:50am

Of your list, GRR can almost certainly be forgotten about.

We'll agree to disagree on this one but we certainly won't debate on this thread.

N4 CoS and the N21 bypasses may not have cleared the planning process in time.

N4 CoS and the 2 N21 bypasses are actually ahead of the Virginia bypass on the planning slog. They're all within a year of each other though.

On the N4/N17 corridors, I was saying that something other than the currently envisaged projects should be done as both are at least a decade away from being delivered.

Give it has taken 4/5 years to select routes on basic schemes in the NDP, I'm not so sure that's true were they to start from scratch again.

I don't see anything happening at GotD on N/M11, trying to do something there effectively kills the project.

Something will have to be done on that corridor eventually, hopefully when Ryan is gone.

marno21 · 01-07-2023 1:11pm

This is hitting the press now

Road to nowhere: Eamon Ryan’s ban puts the brakes on ten ‘vital’ road projects

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/road-to-nowhere-building-ban-puts-the-brakes-on-ten-projects/

roadmaster · 01-07-2023 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791208#Comment_120791208

I Think Mr Ryan is trying to sensor you the link wont open

marno21 · 01-07-2023 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791436#Comment_120791436

Possibly published a bit prematurely.

roadmaster · 02-07-2023 7:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791450#Comment_120791450

I just read it there TII senseing a new overlord in the Future as they are firmly blamming Ryan for the current delays

marno21 · 04-07-2023 7:18am

https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/22269374-new-toll-charges-stalled-road-projects-and-budget/

Discussion with Jack Chambers from 5 mins in re: Eamon Ryan’s shenanigans. Looks like there’s going to be cross Government talks about increasing the funding for 2024. €145m really isn’t enough now that the N5, M21 and M28 are proceeding to construction and there are 30 other projects or so in planning

There are 4 projects going to ABP this year and if all projects proceed there could be upto 10 going to ABP next year, some of which are quite sizeable so funding does need to be examined

Pete_Cavan · 04-07-2023 7:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802171#Comment_120802171

There would be no point throwing close to 10 large projects at ABP next year, that approach would only insure none will be coming out the other side any time soon. TII should be engaging with ABP and agreeing some sort of rough schedule, ABP should have resources dedicated to efficiently work through these road projects and in return, TII don't snow them under.

marno21 · 04-07-2023 7:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802214#Comment_120802214

Not sure what the solution is tbh.

I can't see all 10 going to ABP realistically but ABP should be ready for 8-9 projects over the next 18 months.

One of those could the M20 also which is quite hungry resource wise.

Pete_Cavan · 04-07-2023 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802229#Comment_120802229

We all know ABP wont be able to effectively handle 8-9 major road projects over the next 18 months. They will still be dealing with multiple BusConnects corridors in Dublin, possible BC corridors in other cities, several DART+ projects and Metrolink, along with everything else they are dealing with.

TII should be working with ABP to facilitate them operating more efficiently, it really should have started a couple of years ago as it was easy to see this situation coming. When was the last major road application to ABP?

marno21 · 04-07-2023 8:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802267#Comment_120802267

The last major roads submitted to ABP were the M28 in 2017 (took one year), the N5 in late 2017 (took one year), the M6 Galway Ring Road in 2018 (took 3 years) and the M21 in 2019 (took 3 years).

hans aus dtschl · 04-07-2023 1:45pm

I think you're both right, ABP aren't going to get through these. I suggest they need to ringfence some resources for TII projects and also work with TII on scheduling.

marno21 · 04-07-2023 2:25pm

A good situation would be getting 1/2 projects in now before the summer recess. I believe the Donegal Ten-T 3 schemes should be ready to submit. The next scheme after that that’s likely to go in is the Slane bypass in a few months time. They could get a head start on the Donegal one then.

Pete_Cavan · 04-07-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802323#Comment_120802323

And this highlights the point I have been making for a while, too much focus has been put on designing too many projects. Resources should have been thrown at 3 or 4 projects between 2019 and now to get them into ABP. If that had been done, we'd be in a decent position now, even if several of those projects had to wait another couple of years before construction commences.

Instead, funding was spread too thin and many projects have been crawling through design and too many will enter planning at the same time, meaning all will take longer in planning and there will be another logjam as several billion € worth of projects compete for construction funding.

Bsharp · 05-07-2023 8:40am

Completely agree. Its made it a nightmare for contractors to be able to plan ahead and scale up sustainably. We're turning the design constraint into a construction constraint meaning delays and overspend are inevitable. The industry isn't being given a chance to get delivery teams skilled up to roll out what's needed.

marno21 · 05-07-2023 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804961#Comment_120804961

To be fair, DTTAS had the following plan in 2020 out to 2025:

Commence construction on N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge in 2021, M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy in 2023, M21 Adare-Foynes in 2022, Galway Ring Road in 2025, Slane bypass in 2022, M11 J4-J14 upgrade in 2024, Mallow relief road in 2025, Ardee bypass in 2021. None of these have started construction, only 3 of them have planning permission.

Submit for planning: N2 Ardee/Castleblayney, N2 Clontibret-NI border, M3 Clonee-M50, M4 Maynooth-Leixlip, N4 Mullingar-Longford, M11 Oilgate-Rosslare, the three Donegal TEN-T projects.

Now you have a situation where the above projects are in the mix, new ones because bypasses are prioritised, and projects are 2-3 years behind schedule due to funding shortfalls, Covid delays, planning delays etc.

There's a clear need for someone here (e.g. a Minister) to sit down with TII and have an actual real world grown up conversation about where the Roads programme is. Going by what Jack Chambers was saying on RTE yesterday that may be him. But someone above TII's paygrade needs to take a look at the mess and allocate resources as they are needed, not based on what they fantasise about in the shower.

gooseman12 · 05-07-2023 10:36am

I would also add politicking to the mix here, we know Eamon Ryan has his own aims but so do all the other high level politicians in government.

And politicians can be incredibly flaky and change their minds regularly on topics.

I've seen it first hand with other government organisations, like Irish Water where government interfere and prioritise certain upgrades over others, and then come back some time later and completely change their mind. We see it all the time with the HSE and what services should be provided where and how much sway the government has over the actual defined process.

Governments are looking at holding certain seats and keeping certain people happy and make interventions that go against the logical priority.

I'd imagine TII are dealing with this also where one project is suddenly P1 priority for a while only for something to change and another project swoops in and takes over. It can't be easy.

cartoncowboy · 05-07-2023 4:41pm

In Ireland we can delay the planning update to the planning - good grief !

Further delay to Bill seen as ‘largest overhaul’ of State’s planning system in decades – The Irish Times

marno21 · 06-07-2023 4:05am

Lengthy debate in the Dail on Tuesday and associated motion in relation to the A5 upgrade, and by extension the N2 projects in Monaghan and Louth (of which there are 2) and the Ten-T projects in Donegal (of which there are 3).

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2023-07-04a.309

In a surprising move, the Minister responsible (now proven) for holding up the N2 projects in Monaghan and Louth chose not to be in attendance to defend his actions.

Gunner3629 · 09-07-2023 4:47pm

No mention of Castlemartyr / Killeagh N25 bypass

marno21 · 10-07-2023 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120826234#Comment_120826234

This was brought up at the recent Oireachtas Committee meeting. It's still at Phase 1, so approx 15 years away from completion.

marno21 · 11-07-2023 7:36am

Another day, another complaint about Eamon Ryan at a local authority meeting

Cork today’s destination

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41180677.html

I mean the Mallow bypass stalling is just bizarre. It’s a bypass firstly, it’s 3.8km long and quite cheap and easy to implement. I really don’t understand the stonewalling rationale.

11-07-2023 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833364#Comment_120833364

He wants to collapse the govt if he doesn't get funding for a road

A logical approach 🙄

marno21 · 11-07-2023 9:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833406#Comment_120833406

If FF and FG actually stood up for the people that voted for them in 2020 the Government would have collapsed long ago over far less.

Bertie gave the Greens Ministries he did in 2007 for good reason. MM & LV didn’t have the same guile.

11-07-2023 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833526#Comment_120833526

The GP went in with 6 TD's back then versus 12 for this time around. They were in a much stronger bargaining position and the other 2 were in a much weaker position as illustrated by the very fact the FF & FG had to go into govt together, something that would have been inconceivable for decades prior

On a side note, I wonder who is going to get the blame once we have a new govt but roads funding stays at its current level. The simple fact is the funding priorities have changed and will never go back to what they were. PT & AT have a LONG way to go in terms of funding so to be honest I'd expect to see it shift even further away from roads projects that only induce more car travel.