The roads logjam

marno21

I decided to start a thread to discuss this subject which at present is being discussed across several threads based on how it applies to individual schemes

There are now a clear number of roads schemes which are being funding starved which is preventing them from clearing the next relevant hurdle.

Schemes which are ready to go to construction but funding is preventing it:

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (2024 start possible but funding will not allow start before 2026)

N86 Tralee-Dingle (7km scheme cut back to 0.8km scheme due to funding restrictions)

There are also a number of schemes which could be submitted to An Bord Pleanala this year, but it remains to be seen if sufficient funding will be allocated to do so:

N2 Ardee-Castleblayney

N2 Slane bypass

M11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare Harbour

N13 Letterkenny relief road/DC upgrade

N14 Letterkenny-Lifford

N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass

N70 Milltown bypass

N72 Mallow Relief Road

In addition to the funding issue, there are 3 projects currently held up in the courts subject to judicial review

M6 Galway City Ring Road

M21 Adare-Foynes

N52 Ardee bypass

As someone who follows the progression of roads schemes closely, the administration of the whole roads programme has been absolutely shocking since the middle of 2020. I won't apportion blame here but most of the roads schemes haven't moved forward since then. After all, of the 27 projects without planning announced in the NDP, ZERO have been submitted to ABP, let alone got planning permission. Only TWO projects (Listowel and the N5) have obtained planning permission since 2017.  (There were 45 projects in the NDP, by end 2023 11 will be complete, and 4 partially complete, with 1 under construction).

Pete_Cavan

I don't think it is true to say that M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy is ready to go to construction but funding is preventing it. A multi-year enabling works programme was needed regardless of funding for the main contract. Consultants are being procured now for the delivery stages, hopefully the tender package can be ready next year at which point it comes down to funding being available to progress.

I have previously highlighted the issue of spending so much money on design and not enough on delivery. A lot of people seem happy with projects being in the early design stages in the expectation that they will be delivered in the not too distant future. The reality is that many of those projects won't be delivered for a long time.

The best thing for those early stage projects would be actually delivering the projects ahead of them. Unfortunately funding is being pulled from the more advanced projects, leaving them in a "holding pattern" while millions are being spent on bringing more projects to that same stage. If the goal is to actually deliver projects, that is not the way to go about it.

KrisW1001

The costs of the Covid-19 pandemic are the biggest reason for postponements in the roads programme. I know you would like to pin the blame on the Green Party, but the money says otherwise. All capital projects, not just those under Eamon Ryan’s watch, that were not already in progress have been delayed or reduced since 2020. The only exception to this reduction in capital spending is housing, which has seen budget increases to try fix the mess around accommodation costs in this country - and that increase is coming at the expense of other capital spending, and smaller roads projects are the least contentious to cut (your other options are hospitals and school buildings). But housing is hitting the same problems that road projects face: a slow planning process that’s too easy for unaffected parties to block or derail.

Under legislation currently working its way through the Dáil, an Bord Pleanála is to be replaced with a new Planning Commission before the end of this year. That legislation will also tighten the rules around who is able to object to planning grants, and who can bring Judicial Reviews. The Judicial Review process in particular has been abused by people who know they have no chance of stopping a project but try to delay it for years in the hope of it being sidelined by spending cuts.

I suspect there’s a stay on submission to APB until the new legislation comes into effect, as anything submitted now would be under the current rules, and could take far longer to get to a point of being ready to build than if they just hold on six months and submit it under the new legislation.

There is a lot of benefit to designing ahead of time - it produces a more cohesive system, where projects can take account of other plans. It also allows the work to be parcelled out more flexibly into different sections when it comes to procurement..

marno21

I don't think it is true to say that M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy is ready to go to construction but funding is preventing it. A multi-year enabling works programme was needed regardless of funding for the main contract. Consultants are being procured now for the delivery stages, hopefully the tender package can be ready next year at which point it comes down to funding being available to progress.

The first sentence of your post is indeed true. But from what I can tell, the project will not commence when it will be ready to do so (which will be in late 2024) because not enough funding is being committed to starting it when it'll be ready to go.

Then again, there is an expected allocation of E145m next year spread across almost 40 projects. No way can the roads programme function effectively with that level of funding

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498193#Comment_120498193

I don't like to pin the blame on the Green Party, I'm not one who is always complaining about them here and actually quite often defend them.

Covid is really not an issue in this regard, the issues have been buiding for a long time and pre-date Covid. There are projects which right now aren't receiving sufficient funding to allow them to process to ABP, that has nothing to do with Covid - they actually progressed through early stage design during Covid but arent allowed to move further now. It isn't an overall funding issue either, there are millions being spent on projects which are several years away from ABP, that funding could be diverted with little or no impact.

I seriously doubt that there’s a stay on submission to APB until the new legislation comes into effect. Other projects are still being submitted. There are big question marks over whether the legislation you refer to is acceptable, it will be extremely contentious with lots of opposition and there will be lots of legal wrangling over it. It remains to be seen what will happen there, if it will be brought forward at all. Apart from DOB in Housing, I doubt any other Ministers or Departments are relying on it to solve any problems.

We have done plenty of designing ahead of time, the problem is that projects are not moving from design into the planning approvals stage. Designing more projects doesn't help, those projects only end up in a queue behind other partially designed projects. The issue is not a failure to design, it's the failure to get into the planning system.

The planning system isn't the problem either in that it isn't what is delaying these projects. It obviously has lots of issues too but you can’t blame that for the failure to adequately fund projects but to the stage that they can enter the planning system.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498487#Comment_120498487

I wasn’t replying to your post, but Marno’s. I think we both posted around the same time. Apologies for the confusion.

Regarding Covid, it really is a big deal - the costs of the PUP, combined with lower revenues from VAT, etc were a major drain on government funds. It was the right thing to do, but it wasn’t free, and it’s only now that we’re seeing the effects. No project spending was reduced in 2020 or 2021 because a lot of that work was already allocated or actively underway. However, the spending demands from the pandemic meant that fewer projects needing work in 2022 and 2023 got the funds they needed. There is also a question of whether the agencies can spend the money: if a large sum is allocated to a project but not spent, then it’s less likely to get more in future.

I cannot believe you can actually say the words “the planning system isn’t the problem” in relation to roads projects, when the first post in this thread lists three projects which have each been delayed for years in planning. It needed three years and the involvement of the Supreme Court to get permission to build M28, replacing a road that everyone who uses it acknowledges is dangerous! If planning can take so long and be subject to such arbitrary delays, it acts as a deterrent to bringing a project further than final design. Once a project hits ABP there’s no longer any certainty of when it will be ready to tender, and it’s that uncertainty that is the major cause of delays between programme start and construction.

The legislation I referred to has spent over a year being reviewed by the Attorney General’s office, and it would be a brave opposition that would argue against a more efficient planning system when the number one barrier to meeting the current housing targets is delays in obtaining planning (mind you, the number 2, and not far behind, is a labour shortage, and that’s a place where the opposition can have a justifiable field-day).

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498776#Comment_120498776

Lack of funding isn't the problem so Covid, PUP, etc. are irrelevant. The state will post a huge surplus this year so more money can be made available if required. Funding is there, its just being spent in a way that doesn't allow projects to progress in the way that they should. It makes no sense to fund further projects for early stage design while refusing funding for projects which can progress from design to planning. The logjam is everything is getting stuck in design stage. This could be resolved by funding some projects to progre system isn’t the problem in relation to the logjam referred to in the thread title.

The planning system may be a problem but it isn’t this problem. Projects aren't getting as far as the planning system, that is the problem. Projects getting delayed by Judicial Reviews also is a separate issue which is not helped by delaying projects at an earlier stage. At the end of the day, securing full planning approval will take as long as it takes. Delaying going to ABP only increases to time to full plplanning approval for absolutely no benefit.

Clearly holding back projects which could go to ABP in the next 12 months or so will result in more delays at ABP in the future. There will be even more projects ready to go there in 24 months time and it will be a bigger bottleneck. The only other option will be to postpone the less advanced projects when they eventually get as far as to ABP and in that case, why give them so much funding now? By delaying them now, you could allow the more progressed projects to push ahead.

You clear a logjam by allocating resourses to move along the things at the front of the queue. You can't clear it by devoting resources to adding more projects to the back of the queue while those at the front of the queue stay where they are - that just makes a longer queue and everything suffers.

KrisW1001

If the main complaint is that projects are not being pushed into the APB process, then lack of funding is the problem, but looking everywhere except the obvious place where that funding is needed isn’t going to help matters.

The resources that you are talking about allocating “at the front of the queue” need to be allocated to An Bord Pleanála or its successor, not to the regional road design offices. Finalising a project design for approval is not an enormous task, and it’s not one that has been affected by cost inflation either, and would be easily done with relatively low amounts of money. But if the next step is to submit to an under-resourced planning department that cannot process many of these projects, then there’s no benefit to finalising the project quickly, and in fact there may be a cost if regulations change in the meantime, meaning that a previously planning-ready project needs to be re-done.

There are issues elsewhere in the pipeline, but looking at what is happening, it’s clear to me that the low capacity of ABP to process large infrastructure projects is a major factor in slowing the rate of road construction projects getting to tender. I am interested in hearing evidence to the contrary, but given that housing projects are also struggling with the same issues, with many languishing in planning or not even getting that far, I can’t help but think that the biggest delaying factor is the inability of the planning system to process applications in a timely manner. This isn’t about dropping standards, it’s about having enough people on staff to evaluate planning applications for major projects.

The Roads capital budget has declined as a share of the overall transport budget, but only because the transport budget has expanded to include major investments in public transport infrastructure (including a huge increase in rail spending) - the actual amount allocated to roads has actually increased slightly since 2019.

hans aus dtschl

ABP and the courts are understaffed and it's causing big problems. Housing, infrastructure etc.

Pete_Cavan

ABP will still be swamped in two or three years time if half a dozen large road projects get lobbed at them in a short space of time. It's not like housing applications will reduce, we need to be building the current level of housing units or more for the next decade. Waiting is a stupid policy, even if the planning situation has improved, you have a backlog of projects to get through so the system gets overloaded again.

As things stand, there is only one major road project with planning approval, the M28. Depending on how the JRs go, three others could get the green light (although one of them is the M6 Galway City Ring Road and we all know it won't proceed as even if the Irish courts somehow approve it, it will be off to the European courts). AFAIK the Slane Bypass is the only other project right now with funding to get to ABP. Everything else is on hold for no good reason.

As things stand, it is unlikely anything else will get to ABP before 2025. After averaging less than one road project adjudication per year for the last decade, ABP are seriously going to struggle if they get hit with half a dozen road applications in the space of a couple of years. The present policy is going to result in very few projects available to go to construction when funding increases in 2026. It looks like very little will be delivered in the second half of this decade, possibly even less than in the first half of the decade.

KrisW1001

My bet is the new Planning bill will pass and ABP will be replaced before the end of this year.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501733#Comment_120501733

I think if that new planning bill is passed, the EU will slap massive fines on Ireland.

The new social housing planning amnesty is going to cause carnage with the backlog too.

The solution is more resourcing of courts/judiciary and ABP (or its successor) and the government is basically doing almost anything to avoid that.

New bills, planning amnesties, etc are like pouring petrol on flames. This is messing up the energy sector, transportation, housing, it's a really serious problem. I know we're looking at this from the perspective of roads on here but I'm willing to say this is actually way more serious than roads.

KrisW1001

I think you’re confusing the new bill, which will reform ABP, with the temporary amnesties. The bill enables greater resourcing of the planning body, as the current structure of ABP is not scalable. Better, stricter, faster and more accurate handling of planning applications will leave few avenues for court challenge - our current problem of people running to the courts is because the current system has produced so many permissions that were not legally sound.

I don’t see how the new planning bill would cause difficulty from the EU. If anything, it brings our rules on objections more into line with that in use in other EU members, and would still leave us in the more permissive range of countries when it comes to filing objections. The idea that anyone, anywhere can file an objection to any application anywhere else would seem crazy in our neighbouring countries, but it’s what’s allowed now.

But the purpose of restructuring ABP is not to sidestep or rush through the legal protections that are in place, but to deal with them more efficiently.

I agree that the amnesty is not a good idea; but a new planning body and clearer rules are. The Irish planning system is not fit for purpose, as can be seen simply by reading the news. And I mean that from both a pro-infrastructure and pro-environment standpoint: what use is it for projects to spend a year being granted planning permission only for it to be discovered later that they are in breach of environmental laws?

hans aus dtschl

Yep, they're two things: the new bill we're discussing is I think the Draft Planning and Development Bill 2022? It seems likely that the bill will be challenged in EU court due to the restrictions placed on even local groups from being allowed representation. From my (not-legal-expert, and not terribly detailed) reading of the points of some dissenting stakeholders, it seems it has a reasonable chance of becoming struck down by the EU courts for that reason.

I don't think too many people have a problem with ABP reform though, and that would be a good thing.

The planning system is definitely broken, but I don't think the amnesty will help.

I also don't think that the parts of the bill that are an effort to limit the objectors are a good idea. I don't see the benefit of limiting geographical distribution of objections. I've seen dodgy approvals down through the years which I never objected to these because they "didn't affect me personally".

Examples: large industrial facilities and large housing estates receiving planning in remote areas without suitable infrastructure. Fittingly enough, many of these become "ghost estates" and those "plans" for industrial sites never moved forward to construction (these seem to be efforts at "flipping", or else "creeping" piecemeal plans for larger facilities.

The likes of Sweetman or whatever his name is, are not famous for "stupid frivolous objections" but rather because their objections win in court. The problem isn't that this guy is sitting at the other side of the country bringing objections, rather the problem is that the schemes are getting approval in the first place, and his objections are showing that they shouldn't be getting approval.

The Galway City Ring Road is the case in point here, for me. The Council and ABP didn't even defend it in court. They just accepted that their approved plan shouldn't have been approved. But if nobody had brought an objection, then it would have just gone ahead. So what's the benefit of limiting objections then? Is it just to allow schemes which should technically not get approval, to go ahead?

"Frivolous" schemes that don't get built are an issue because they're tying up the ABP resources. Limiting objections isn't the answer to that either.

"Optimistic" and "marginal" schemes are an issue. Limiting objections isn't the answer to that either.

Bad proposals and dodgy approvals are an issue. Limiting objections isn't the correct answer to that.

KrisW1001

Okay, a lot of people have got the wrong end of the stick with the new planning bill. It does not stop Judicial Reviews. All it does is enforce greater transparency around who exactly is seeking to have a project overturned, and it makes it harder for people to hide behind newly-formed “residents’ action committees”. Anyone openly requesting a review as an individual retains that right, so Mr Sweetman’s activities will be in no way impinged by this new bill.

Here’s the official summary of the proposed Planning and Development Bill - https://assets.gov.ie/242339/8c70c3b4-9303-4c72-905d-6fbe0bed5296.pdf Page 14 has the bit on Judicial Reviews.

Note from that that individuals have had no limits placed on them, and are still permitted to bring Judicial Reviews of planning.

The new restrictions are on organisations, and reading the conditions, you can see that they are specifically aimed at “astroturf” bodies trying to delay projects. The points on Page 14 make it very clear that groups like FIE or An Taisce will continue to be able to bring JR proceedings, as this is one of their stated purposes. The restrictions are on the likes of the “XYZ Area Concerned Residents Steering Group” which are opaquely funded, and often used as a front by people who’d rather keep their interactions with the planning system secret. A local resident can bring a JR, but like any other individual they will be named. Against that, court costs will now be controlled, except in cases of repeated frivolous or vexatious litigation (again, no threat to the likes of Mr Sweetman - a case you win can never be deemed frivolous or vexatious).

There are some other things in there I also agree with, like strengthening the power of Local Authorities to CPO derelict properties - these are small in number in any city, but they can often block development of larger areas for the public good.

hans aus dtschl

Yep there's a lot in the bill that's necessary, but I think the blocking of residents groups or blocking of opaque organisations is an unnecessary step that leaves them open to challenge. It's a solution in search of a problem. I don't know of any instance of an "area concerned residents group" being nefariously funded to astro-turf planning. Rather the opposite, I know of very large numbers of opaquely-named planning applicants submitting ridiculous plans for approval.

If they're making objectors be personally-named then they should make applicants be personally-named too. It's only fair :)

The M28 project is the closest thing I can think of - where I strongly disagreed with the "concerned residents group" - and they lost their case. If they were instead mandated to register as named individuals it would simply have left them open to reprisals. If they were mandated to register individually, the only net benefit would be if something very bad happened to the objecting individual, and they couldn't continue their case. I don't really like the idea of that at all.

Another one would be Mannix Flynn's various "concerned residents groups": they're failing in the courts just like anyone else. I don't see how they're considered the problem in the planning system, which is in need of more resources.

Fining the ABP-equivalent body for not reaching decisions is another ridiculous thing included in the bill in my opinion. It appears to be just a big ball of random ideas to avoid resourcing ABP and the judiciary!

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120503363#Comment_120503363

(10) Where leave is opposed under paragraph (b) of subsection (9), the court shall not grant an application for leave on any grounds pleaded in the statement required to ground an application for judicial review, unless it is satisfied that— (c) the applicant has a sufficient interest in the ground and for these purposes— (i) an applicant shall not be regarded as having a sufficient interest for the purpose of this section unless that applicant is or may be directly or indirectly materially affected by the matters to which the application relates

Sweetman or whatever his name is would categorically not be able to access judicial reviews btw. Because he won't be directly or materially affected by the applications he objects to.

KrisW1001

( Assuming you’re quoting from this document: https://assets.gov.ie/245627/be71aebe-a594-4b3c-bffb-89ddf8e1ed95.pdf )

You’re correct about Sweetman, but it’s not difficult for him to set up an environmental charity or non-profit that meets that requirements and continue his work that way - it’s a low bar. The wording of the rest of that section is specifically to allow groups such as An Taisce, FIE or the various wildlife charities to seek judicial review of projects. What it does not do is give some kind of “corporate privilege” for JRs, as some of the more conspiracy-minded (not anyone on this thread though) have been saying.

Legally, all non-profit campaigning organisations, including charities, are registered companies (An Taisce is Company number 12469 at CRO; FIE is 326985), which is why it has to say “company” there. The stuff about incorporation time and charters is to prevent companies of convenience being set up to submit JR requests, and to prevent other kinds of commercial enterprise gaining a right to interfere in the planning process that they should not have.

(Companies which will be directly affected by the planning retain the right to submit a JR request, regardless of their business, as do individuals who are affected)

The JR thing is something of a red herring, though: it is only an effective tool because the initial planning process doesn’t take full account of the law. That is happening now because of understaffing and high workload at ABP. The new structures proposed by this act should make that problem easier to fix.

A fast planning process can be a thorough one, if the resources are put in place to make it so. At the moment, we’ve a slow process that isn’t thorough. I want planning grants to happen quickly, transparently, fairly and in accordance with the strictest environmental conditions; right now we’re getting none of those things.

hans aus dtschl

You're 100% right. We have slow process that isn't thorough and that the understaffing and high workload at ABP is the bottleneck. And you're right that provisions in the bill should address this. But I don't see how limiting who can make an objection does anything but cause problems, personally.

On whether the example of Sweetman works (I really hope I'm not getting his name wrong) I believe he would need to set up an organisation with a minimum of 10 people, in order to proceed with the route you mention, right? And again, I'm just not seeing the "win" there for anyone other than those trying to get bad designs approved.

It's much worse than "a solution in search of a problem" because it will likely expose the bill to legal challenges.

KrisW1001

Yes, his name’s Peter Sweetman. Examiner interview here: “The perpetual appeal of Peter Sweetman”

He could set up an organisation: it’s not like he isn’t already one; he basically does nothing else but challenge these planning permissions, and already has assistants who work with him – or he could work through an existing environmental organisation. However, from that interview, I will say that he comes across as surprisingly pragmatic in how he approaches the cases he takes: “Some [cases] we would take on because we believe we’re going to win,” he says. “Some we take on because we believe we can make very good law by winning them.”

The other quote, which backs up what I was saying about better planning making JRs less useful, is this one: “Any case I won was because [An Bord Pleanála] got it wrong.” That is the big point. JRs aren’t the problem, they’re a symptom of the problem.

He has of coursed pledged to challenge the new planning bill, but I suspect they’ve left just enough avenues for appeal for it to pass challenge.

L1011

Sweetman briefly had an account here. It was... interesting.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505563#Comment_120505563

I never knew!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120504212#Comment_120504212

Yep, interesting times ahead for sure!

cartoncowboy

If I were Leo, Micheal and Eamonn, I'd be looking at the extra surpluses and saying, right we need to double or triple the size of ABP, put in the staff it needs to work effectively and take 1-2B of that extra revenue to properly fund everything in flight right now. Because as it stands right now, they are heading for the exit and they know it. If they want to have any chance of staying in power they need to be seen to be spending some of that surplus to deliver infrastructure projects. In the current climate, a project having the status "pending funding" is not a good look when we have the cash on hand. And still have loads left over for a rainy day fund or whatever. If they sit on all that money and don't reform ABP and everything stays delayed, they'll be out the door for sure. Clock is a ticking !

Is there anything to be said for creating an ABP-Infra, which handles infrastructure only projects either as a sub divsion or new entity?

Great thread, thanks for starting it :-)

KrisW1001

ABP is being restructured and enlarged, but I think we need to look outside our own little area of interest, and be more honest: the only infrastructure that the electorate cares about is housing, with hospitals and schools filling out the top three. Nobody is going to turn their vote from the government parties to the opposition because a local road isn’t getting more lanes or there’s no double-track railway being built.

The planning approval part of ABP already is what you’re describing as “ABP-Infra”. Commercial development does not apply to APB for permission. But the bulk of ABP’s workload is in handling appeals against planning decisions from local government.

hans aus dtschl

Agreed.

And just to reiterate, ABP were dealt a severe blow, by having to review "STRATEGIC" housing developments. The current backlog didn't happen in a vacuum.

marno21

Confirmed by TII yesterday in the Oireachtas Transport Committee that Ministerial direction for 2023 is to complete the current committed to phases of the following schemes and to not commence further stages:

* N2 Ardee to Castleblayney

* N2 Rath Roundabout to Kilmoon Cross

* N3 Clonee to M50

* N4 Mullingar to Longford

* M4 Maynooth to Leixlip

* M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 upgrade

* N17 Knock to Collooney

* N22 Farranfore to Killarney

* N40 Cork North Ring Road

* N72/N73 Mallow Relief Road

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/submissions/2023/2023-06-28_opening-statement-peter-walsh-chief-executive-officer-transport-infrastructure-ireland-tii_en.pdf

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780915#Comment_120780915

The M20 hasn't been subject to Ministerial direction to not commence further stages in 2023.

Vicxas

The stoppage of the Kilmoon one is a disgrace, thats a bottleneck every morning for thousands of people getting to work.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780955#Comment_120780955

In a very competitive constituency. Wouldn’t go down well with voters you’d imagine.

Pete_Cavan

I don't think not commencing further stages now is actually going to delay delivery of those projects. Not progressing them now might actually help other projects get through ABP a bit quicker rather than having double-digit large road projects clogging up the system. Going back to my earlier point, currently policy will see us build not enough this decade but designing more than we can deliver in the next decade.

We really should be focusing on getting a particular set of projectsat least commenced before 2030 (and completd in some cases). Everything else can sit for a few years and still be delivered post 2030 (realistically they aren't going to be delivered before then anyway). I'd like to see focus on getting the following projects to construction before 2030;

M28 Ringaskiddy

M21 Adare-Foynes

N2 Slane bypass

N3 Virginia bypass

M11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare Harbour

N13 Letterkenny relief road/DC upgrade

N52 Ardee bypass

Some part of N/M20 (ideally Cork - north of Mallow)

The above list assumes N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge is a given at this stage.

There is obviously a lot which should be done before 2030 below the major project threshold. I also believe that there are smaller elements that can be done on some corridors which are currently down for a €0.5bn project which can be delivered much quicker and we considerable benefits for a fraction of the cost (particularly on the N4 and N17.

Surprised to see M11 J4 to J14 on that list, it is another which should be on the priority list. It should include a few P&Rs and bus lanes north of Kilmac with the goal of encouraging modal shift. It should be framed as an integrated project though, not just a road upgrade.

marno21

Two things TII said at that meeting stood out yesterday

1. They are now forecasting it is a 15 year timeframe from project inception to completion.
2. As it stands, capital investment in roads is scheduled to ramp up in 2026. As of now, they do not have enough projects with planning to actually use that money.

I posted my list of what I expect them to at least get underway by 2030 here: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058299683/a-longer-term-outlook-a-post-to-return-to-in-10-years-time#latest

My list is your 8.5 projects + 6 more (including the rest of the M20).

Re: N4/N17 corridors. Both of these have had funding cut off as per above.

Re: N11. Nothing near Glen of the Downs will progress while he's Minister.

Chris_5339762

He needs to get off the back of the N40 Cork North Ring.

You can argue all you want about sustainable transport, but the N40 North Ring will be a monumental, glaring gap in the network once the M28 and M20 are done. You'll have Galway - Ringaskiddy as motorway with a pootle of 5km through residential Blackpool at the tail end of it.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781394#Comment_120781394

Of your list, GRR can almost certainly be forgotten about. N4 CoS and the N21 bypasses may not have cleared the planning process in time. The N/M20 is unlikely to progress as a single project.

On the N4/N17 corridors, I was saying that something other than the currently envisaged projects should be done as both are at least a decade away from being delivered.

I don't see anything happening at GotD on N/M11, trying to do something there effectively kills the project.

marno21

Of your list, GRR can almost certainly be forgotten about. 

We'll agree to disagree on this one but we certainly won't debate on this thread.

N4 CoS and the N21 bypasses may not have cleared the planning process in time.

N4 CoS and the 2 N21 bypasses are actually ahead of the Virginia bypass on the planning slog. They're all within a year of each other though.

On the N4/N17 corridors, I was saying that something other than the currently envisaged projects should be done as both are at least a decade away from being delivered.

Give it has taken 4/5 years to select routes on basic schemes in the NDP, I'm not so sure that's true were they to start from scratch again. 

I don't see anything happening at GotD on N/M11, trying to do something there effectively kills the project.

Something will have to be done on that corridor eventually, hopefully when Ryan is gone.

marno21

This is hitting the press now

Road to nowhere: Eamon Ryan’s ban puts the brakes on ten ‘vital’ road projects

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/road-to-nowhere-building-ban-puts-the-brakes-on-ten-projects/

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791208#Comment_120791208

I Think Mr Ryan is trying to sensor you the link wont open

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791436#Comment_120791436

Possibly published a bit prematurely.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791450#Comment_120791450

I just read it there TII senseing a new overlord in the Future as they are firmly blamming Ryan for the current delays

marno21

https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/22269374-new-toll-charges-stalled-road-projects-and-budget/

Discussion with Jack Chambers from 5 mins in re: Eamon Ryan’s shenanigans. Looks like there’s going to be cross Government talks about increasing the funding for 2024. €145m really isn’t enough now that the N5, M21 and M28 are proceeding to construction and there are 30 other projects or so in planning

There are 4 projects going to ABP this year and if all projects proceed there could be upto 10 going to ABP next year, some of which are quite sizeable so funding does need to be examined

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802171#Comment_120802171

There would be no point throwing close to 10 large projects at ABP next year, that approach would only insure none will be coming out the other side any time soon. TII should be engaging with ABP and agreeing some sort of rough schedule, ABP should have resources dedicated to efficiently work through these road projects and in return, TII don't snow them under.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802214#Comment_120802214

Not sure what the solution is tbh.

I can't see all 10 going to ABP realistically but ABP should be ready for 8-9 projects over the next 18 months.

One of those could the M20 also which is quite hungry resource wise.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802229#Comment_120802229

We all know ABP wont be able to effectively handle 8-9 major road projects over the next 18 months. They will still be dealing with multiple BusConnects corridors in Dublin, possible BC corridors in other cities, several DART+ projects and Metrolink, along with everything else they are dealing with.

TII should be working with ABP to facilitate them operating more efficiently, it really should have started a couple of years ago as it was easy to see this situation coming. When was the last major road application to ABP?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802267#Comment_120802267

The last major roads submitted to ABP were the M28 in 2017 (took one year), the N5 in late 2017 (took one year), the M6 Galway Ring Road in 2018 (took 3 years) and the M21 in 2019 (took 3 years).

hans aus dtschl

I think you're both right, ABP aren't going to get through these. I suggest they need to ringfence some resources for TII projects and also work with TII on scheduling.

marno21

A good situation would be getting 1/2 projects in now before the summer recess. I believe the Donegal Ten-T 3 schemes should be ready to submit. The next scheme after that that’s likely to go in is the Slane bypass in a few months time. They could get a head start on the Donegal one then.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802323#Comment_120802323

And this highlights the point I have been making for a while, too much focus has been put on designing too many projects. Resources should have been thrown at 3 or 4 projects between 2019 and now to get them into ABP. If that had been done, we'd be in a decent position now, even if several of those projects had to wait another couple of years before construction commences.

Instead, funding was spread too thin and many projects have been crawling through design and too many will enter planning at the same time, meaning all will take longer in planning and there will be another logjam as several billion € worth of projects compete for construction funding.

Bsharp

Completely agree. Its made it a nightmare for contractors to be able to plan ahead and scale up sustainably. We're turning the design constraint into a construction constraint meaning delays and overspend are inevitable. The industry isn't being given a chance to get delivery teams skilled up to roll out what's needed.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804961#Comment_120804961

To be fair, DTTAS had the following plan in 2020 out to 2025:

Commence construction on N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge in 2021, M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy in 2023, M21 Adare-Foynes in 2022, Galway Ring Road in 2025, Slane bypass in 2022, M11 J4-J14 upgrade in 2024, Mallow relief road in 2025, Ardee bypass in 2021. None of these have started construction, only 3 of them have planning permission.

Submit for planning: N2 Ardee/Castleblayney, N2 Clontibret-NI border, M3 Clonee-M50, M4 Maynooth-Leixlip, N4 Mullingar-Longford, M11 Oilgate-Rosslare, the three Donegal TEN-T projects.

Now you have a situation where the above projects are in the mix, new ones because bypasses are prioritised, and projects are 2-3 years behind schedule due to funding shortfalls, Covid delays, planning delays etc.

There's a clear need for someone here (e.g. a Minister) to sit down with TII and have an actual real world grown up conversation about where the Roads programme is. Going by what Jack Chambers was saying on RTE yesterday that may be him. But someone above TII's paygrade needs to take a look at the mess and allocate resources as they are needed, not based on what they fantasise about in the shower.

gooseman12

I would also add politicking to the mix here, we know Eamon Ryan has his own aims but so do all the other high level politicians in government.

And politicians can be incredibly flaky and change their minds regularly on topics.

I've seen it first hand with other government organisations, like Irish Water where government interfere and prioritise certain upgrades over others, and then come back some time later and completely change their mind. We see it all the time with the HSE and what services should be provided where and how much sway the government has over the actual defined process.

Governments are looking at holding certain seats and keeping certain people happy and make interventions that go against the logical priority.

I'd imagine TII are dealing with this also where one project is suddenly P1 priority for a while only for something to change and another project swoops in and takes over. It can't be easy.

cartoncowboy

In Ireland we can delay the planning update to the planning - good grief !

Further delay to Bill seen as ‘largest overhaul’ of State’s planning system in decades – The Irish Times

marno21

Lengthy debate in the Dail on Tuesday and associated motion in relation to the A5 upgrade, and by extension the N2 projects in Monaghan and Louth (of which there are 2) and the Ten-T projects in Donegal (of which there are 3).

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2023-07-04a.309

In a surprising move, the Minister responsible (now proven) for holding up the N2 projects in Monaghan and Louth chose not to be in attendance to defend his actions.