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The roads logjam

marno21

I decided to start a thread to discuss this subject which at present is being discussed across several threads based on how it applies to individual schemes

There are now a clear number of roads schemes which are being funding starved which is preventing them from clearing the next relevant hurdle.

Schemes which are ready to go to construction but funding is preventing it:

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (2024 start possible but funding will not allow start before 2026)

N86 Tralee-Dingle (7km scheme cut back to 0.8km scheme due to funding restrictions)

There are also a number of schemes which could be submitted to An Bord Pleanala this year, but it remains to be seen if sufficient funding will be allocated to do so:

N2 Ardee-Castleblayney

N2 Slane bypass

M11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare Harbour

N13 Letterkenny relief road/DC upgrade

N14 Letterkenny-Lifford

N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass

N70 Milltown bypass

N72 Mallow Relief Road

In addition to the funding issue, there are 3 projects currently held up in the courts subject to judicial review

M6 Galway City Ring Road

M21 Adare-Foynes

N52 Ardee bypass

As someone who follows the progression of roads schemes closely, the administration of the whole roads programme has been absolutely shocking since the middle of 2020. I won't apportion blame here but most of the roads schemes haven't moved forward since then. After all, of the 27 projects without planning announced in the NDP, ZERO have been submitted to ABP, let alone got planning permission. Only TWO projects (Listowel and the N5) have obtained planning permission since 2017. (There were 45 projects in the NDP, by end 2023 11 will be complete, and 4 partially complete, with 1 under construction).

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Charles Babbage

Ryan is spinning a falsehood. Donegal is never going to to get a railway line. Hence the N2 needs to be improved, yet his department are dragging their heels on progressing the planning. The people of County Waterford have a motorway and railway to Dublin and likely will have their railway to Rosslare restored. The larger number in Donegal will never have a railway, will not get a motorway either, but do need a safe modern road.

marno21

The issue isn’t the 2:1 ratio. I’d argue it should be slightly more towards PT, perhaps 5:2 given the serious backlog of PT projects in the country. During the Transport21 years, many of the big roads projects (M6/7/8/9, Limerick Tunnel, M18, M50 upgrade, Waterford bypass) managed to get built before the recession but the big PT projects (Metro North/West, DU etc) did not get built. There’s definitely a bigger (in cost terms) backlog of immediate priority PT projects than roads ones.

The issue is that even though Ryan got his 2:1 ratio in the Programme for Government, it’s not enough for him to focus on actual delivery of the 2 side and the PT projects, he has to stick his oar into the roads side and get caught up obstructing projects there and that’s where all the headlines are then.

It was never about decarbonisation or anything else, it’s the usual “I hate roads and cars” above anything else. The response from politicians and noted environmental/transport commentators in Ireland to LV’s comments about still needing roads investment this week were breathtaking.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914352#Comment_120914352

he has to stick his oar into the roads side

He is the Minister with responsibility. It would be bizarre in the extreme if he wasn't involved 🤷‍♂️

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915339#Comment_120915339

The National Development Plan is a cross Government plan and the 2:1 ratio is in the Programme for Government.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915593#Comment_120915593

And?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915339#Comment_120915339

There is a junior in the department meant to handle national roads and airports to keep Ryan looking pure.

Oddly he doesn't seem to care about the various airport interventions that have happened (Cork getting state funding for the first time, runway extension in Waterford) etc but he does for roads.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915635#Comment_120915635

As you said Ryan is the responsible minister, and his responsibility is to champion what is in the NDP and deliver on projects in the agreed program, not to obstruct and delay.

marno21

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22280686/

Discussion on this from RTE’s This Week

Complete spoofing from the Green Party member. Clearly has no idea what she’s talking about

(Capital funding for new roads is 237m in 2023)

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120916660#Comment_120916660

The latest list I could find of projects underway

N2 Rath roundabout to Kilmoon Cross
N2 Ardee to South of Castleblayney Bypass
N2 Slane Bypass
N2 Clontibret to NI Border
N3 Dublin Road roundabout
Motorway Service Areas (Tranche 4)
N3 Virginia bypass
N4 Collooney / Castlebaldwin
M4 Maynooth to Leixlip
N4 Carrick on Shannon to Dromod
N4 Mullingar to Longford (Roosky)
N4/N15 Sligo Urban Road Improvement
N5 Westport to Turlough
N6 Galway City Ring Road
M8/N40/N25 Dunkettle Interchange
N11/M11 Bus Priority Interim Scheme
N11 Oilgate to Rosslare
NDP - N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme
Donegal TEN-T
N13 Bridgend
N16 Lugatober re-alignment
N17 Knock to Collooney
N17 Milltown to Gortnagunnad re-alignment
N19 Shannon Airport Access
NDP - M20 Limerick to Cork
N20 Rourkes Cross
NDP Cork to Limerick
N21/69 Foynes to Limerick (incl. Adare Bypass)
N21 Newcastle West Relief Road
N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road
N22 Baile Bhuirne Macroom
N22 Farranfore to Killarney
N24 Waterford to Cahir
N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction
N24 Beary's Cross
N24 Carrick Road improvement
N25 Waterford to Glenmore
Rosslare Europort Access Road
N26 Cloongullane Bridge
N28 Ringaskiddy to Cork
M50 Enhancing Motorway Operation Services Programme
N52 Ardee Bypass
N52 Tullamore Kilbeggan Link
N52 Cloghan to Billistown - Phase 2
N52 Grange to Clontail scheme
N53 Hackballscross to Rassan
N55 Corduff to south of Killydoon Phase B
N55 Athlone to Ballymahon (formally N55 Glasson to Cornamaddy and N55)
N59 Moycullen Bypass
N59 Westport to Mulranny
N60 Heathlawn
N60 Manulla Cross
N61 Ballymurray to Knockcroghery
N67/N85 Blake's Corner
N69 Listowel Bypass
N71 Bandon Bypass
N71 Newmills/Owenahincha
N72/N73 Mallow Relief Road
N72 Killorglin Approaches (Anglont)
N73 Clogher Cross Waterdyke

Can you outline how he is obstructing and delaying all of those.

He's some man for one man if he's able to delay that many projects across the entire country, especially since all but 4-5 are moving through the phased stages, but I'll defer to your knowledge in the matter

Hibernicis

He is delaying projects by refusing approval for projects to proceed, running them down, denying them funding and dictating that any funding that is granted is for preliminaries only, never for construction.

Your list of "projects", taken from Chapter 7 of the current NDP, is a miscellany of road projects that were part of the previous NDP and are subject to further approvals. I do not believe construction approval has been given for any of these during Ryan's term of office.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918529#Comment_120918529

Here you go

Hibernicis

None of those received construction funding approval during Ryan's term.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918738#Comment_120918738

You stated

I do not believe construction approval has been given for any of these during Ryan's term of office.

As illustrated, that is not the case.

Hibernicis

This is getting silly. Which ones received construction approval during his term ?

spacetweek

“The latest list I could find of projects underway”

You must know that TII’s website is years out of date and Oireachtas questions reveal that probably 5% of that list will move to construction by 2030 so long as the Greens have any say over roads.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921268#Comment_120921268

A large chunk of them are minor schemes as well, many for safety reasons. Road safety not an issue for these people unless it involves reducing speed limits of course.

But why bother argue when cars bad.

marno21

A new one. Kerry Green rep says that local authority representatives shouldn’t be bothering Eamon Ryan about roads projects he’s obstructing because he’s too busy trying to run 3 Departments

https://www.radiokerry.ie/podcasts/kerry-today/time-to-think-trains-september-21st-2023-348152

9 mins in

marno21

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/09/29/tensions-rise-over-roads-spending-as-fine-gael-and-fianna-fail-press-eamon-ryan/

Cookiemunster

When his own junior minister is leveling these accusations at him at Cabinet, you know he's problem.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171971#Comment_121171971

2.6 billion will be spent on roads this year going by that article. That is the alloted amount to be spent.

I'm not seeing the issue

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172376#Comment_121172376

That’s total Dept of Transport capital spending across the department. Not on roads

Capital spending on new national roads is around €240m in 2023 and €145m in 2024

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172503#Comment_121172503

I didn't realise so much was going towards new roads

Regardless, there's a sizable chunk being spent on roads

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/2381e-626-million-for-regional-and-local-roads-announced/

Not to mention the near half billion recently announced for the N5.

Roads are not shy of investment, quite the opposite based on figures like those.

spacetweek

I wouldn't count €626 million on regional and local roads as much really. That's just keeping them paved - steady state stuff.

KrisW1001

It's still a cost, and it still has to come out of the DoT roads budget.

cjpm

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/failure-to-invest-in-road-projects-could-lead-to-77-deaths-over-next-five-years-transport-body-warns-eamon-ryan/a1836048566.html

Thread should be renamed Roads Logjam due to possibly the worst Government in States history giving Transport Ministry to party of idiots in order to buy their support.

Seth Brundle

I'd like to see the methodology used by TII. It is worrying if they predict 6 fatalities on the N4 between Leixlip and Maynooth given that it is not the N4 but M4. However, 6 fatalities within a 5 year window along a stretch that hasn't had any fatalities seems a strange and unusual jump. They'd hardly be making up the numbers, would they?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196071#Comment_121196071

If the M4 is congested as it is, it means that people will take alternative routes to avoid congestion on the M4. This includes the old N4 (R148) and any other feasible alternative route to complete their journey. The roads not labelled M4 are less safe and many of them include rat runs on by roads and through residential areas. Having traffic on these routes will increase risk to pedestrians and cyclists on these routes in addition to adding more general traffic to these unfit roads.

Sure, not widening the M4 will keep volumes lower on the M4 but the idea that it reduces net traffic along that corridor is disputable.

marno21

Four stretches of road were flagged in the NDP 2018 proposal for being particularly bad for head on and fatal head on collisions:

The N2 between Ardee and Emyvale

The N4 between Mullingar and Rooskey

The N20 along its entire undivided length

The N22 between Ballincollig and Farranfore

On these stretches, there were 6 projects proposed in the NDP. One is built (N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney), one is in planning (M20) and four were defunded by the Minister (N2 x2, Farranfore-Killarney and the N4 Mullingar-Longford). The N2 in north Monaghan has been refunded by money from the EU Connecting Europe facility which will be matched by the Department of Transport.

It's all well and good saying that reducing speed limits will solve all our road safety issues but if these routes are being flagged for head on collisions and the improvement works are being defunded it's a bit rich talking about road safety.

Sam Russell

Well they made up the name of the road, so who knows.

Norteño

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196204#Comment_121196204

My thoughts exactly.