The roads logjam

Charles Babbage

Ryan is spinning a falsehood. Donegal is never going to to get a railway line. Hence the N2 needs to be improved, yet his department are dragging their heels on progressing the planning. The people of County Waterford have a motorway and railway to Dublin and likely will have their railway to Rosslare restored. The larger number in Donegal will never have a railway, will not get a motorway either, but do need a safe modern road.

marno21

The issue isn’t the 2:1 ratio. I’d argue it should be slightly more towards PT, perhaps 5:2 given the serious backlog of PT projects in the country. During the Transport21 years, many of the big roads projects (M6/7/8/9, Limerick Tunnel, M18, M50 upgrade, Waterford bypass) managed to get built before the recession but the big PT projects (Metro North/West, DU etc) did not get built. There’s definitely a bigger (in cost terms) backlog of immediate priority PT projects than roads ones.

The issue is that even though Ryan got his 2:1 ratio in the Programme for Government, it’s not enough for him to focus on actual delivery of the 2 side and the PT projects, he has to stick his oar into the roads side and get caught up obstructing projects there and that’s where all the headlines are then.

It was never about decarbonisation or anything else, it’s the usual “I hate roads and cars” above anything else. The response from politicians and noted environmental/transport commentators in Ireland to LV’s comments about still needing roads investment this week were breathtaking.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914352#Comment_120914352

he has to stick his oar into the roads side

He is the Minister with responsibility. It would be bizarre in the extreme if he wasn't involved 🤷‍♂️

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915339#Comment_120915339

The National Development Plan is a cross Government plan and the 2:1 ratio is in the Programme for Government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915593#Comment_120915593

And?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915339#Comment_120915339

There is a junior in the department meant to handle national roads and airports to keep Ryan looking pure.

Oddly he doesn't seem to care about the various airport interventions that have happened (Cork getting state funding for the first time, runway extension in Waterford) etc but he does for roads.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915635#Comment_120915635

As you said Ryan is the responsible minister, and his responsibility is to champion what is in the NDP and deliver on projects in the agreed program, not to obstruct and delay.

marno21

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22280686/

Discussion on this from RTE’s This Week

Complete spoofing from the Green Party member. Clearly has no idea what she’s talking about

(Capital funding for new roads is 237m in 2023)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120916660#Comment_120916660

The latest list I could find of projects underway

• N2 Rath roundabout to Kilmoon Cross
• N2 Ardee to South of Castleblayney Bypass
• N2 Slane Bypass 
• N2 Clontibret to NI Border
• N3 Dublin Road roundabout
• Motorway Service Areas (Tranche 4)
• N3 Virginia bypass
• N4 Collooney / Castlebaldwin
• M4 Maynooth to Leixlip 
• N4 Carrick on Shannon to Dromod
• N4 Mullingar to Longford (Roosky)
• N4/N15 Sligo Urban Road Improvement
• N5 Westport to Turlough 
• N6 Galway City Ring Road 
• M8/N40/N25 Dunkettle Interchange
• N11/M11 Bus Priority Interim Scheme
• N11 Oilgate to Rosslare
• NDP - N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme
• Donegal TEN-T
• N13 Bridgend
• N16 Lugatober re-alignment
• N17 Knock to Collooney
• N17 Milltown to Gortnagunnad re-alignment
• N19 Shannon Airport Access 
• NDP - M20 Limerick to Cork 
• N20 Rourkes Cross
• NDP Cork to Limerick 
• N21/69 Foynes to Limerick (incl. Adare Bypass)
• N21 Newcastle West Relief Road 
• N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road 
• N22 Baile Bhuirne Macroom 
• N22 Farranfore to Killarney
• N24 Waterford to Cahir
• N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction
• N24 Beary's Cross 
• N24 Carrick Road improvement 
• N25 Waterford to Glenmore
• Rosslare Europort Access Road 
• N26 Cloongullane Bridge 
• N28 Ringaskiddy to Cork
• M50 Enhancing Motorway Operation Services Programme
• N52 Ardee Bypass
• N52 Tullamore Kilbeggan Link
• N52 Cloghan to Billistown - Phase 2
• N52 Grange to Clontail scheme 
• N53 Hackballscross to Rassan 
• N55 Corduff to south of Killydoon Phase B
• N55 Athlone to Ballymahon (formally N55 Glasson to Cornamaddy and N55)
• N59 Moycullen Bypass
• N59 Westport to Mulranny 
• N60 Heathlawn
• N60 Manulla Cross
• N61 Ballymurray to Knockcroghery
• N67/N85 Blake's Corner
• N69 Listowel Bypass 
• N71 Bandon Bypass
• N71 Newmills/Owenahincha
• N72/N73 Mallow Relief Road
• N72 Killorglin Approaches (Anglont) 
• N73 Clogher Cross Waterdyke

Can you outline how he is obstructing and delaying all of those.

He's some man for one man if he's able to delay that many projects across the entire country, especially since all but 4-5 are moving through the phased stages, but I'll defer to your knowledge in the matter

Hibernicis

He is delaying projects by refusing approval for projects to proceed, running them down, denying them funding and dictating that any funding that is granted is for preliminaries only, never for construction.

Your list of "projects", taken from Chapter 7 of the current NDP, is a miscellany of road projects that were part of the previous NDP and are subject to further approvals. I do not believe construction approval has been given for any of these during Ryan's term of office.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918529#Comment_120918529

Here you go

Hibernicis

None of those received construction funding approval during Ryan's term.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918738#Comment_120918738

You stated

I do not believe construction approval has been given for any of these during Ryan's term of office.

As illustrated, that is not the case.

Hibernicis

This is getting silly. Which ones received construction approval during his term ?

spacetweek

“The latest list I could find of projects underway”

You must know that TII’s website is years out of date and Oireachtas questions reveal that probably 5% of that list will move to construction by 2030 so long as the Greens have any say over roads.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921268#Comment_120921268

A large chunk of them are minor schemes as well, many for safety reasons. Road safety not an issue for these people unless it involves reducing speed limits of course.

But why bother argue when cars bad.

marno21

A new one. Kerry Green rep says that local authority representatives shouldn’t be bothering Eamon Ryan about roads projects he’s obstructing because he’s too busy trying to run 3 Departments

https://www.radiokerry.ie/podcasts/kerry-today/time-to-think-trains-september-21st-2023-348152

9 mins in

marno21

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/09/29/tensions-rise-over-roads-spending-as-fine-gael-and-fianna-fail-press-eamon-ryan/

Cookiemunster

When his own junior minister is leveling these accusations at him at Cabinet, you know he's problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171971#Comment_121171971

2.6 billion will be spent on roads this year going by that article. That is the alloted amount to be spent.

I'm not seeing the issue

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172376#Comment_121172376

That’s total Dept of Transport capital spending across the department. Not on roads

Capital spending on new national roads is around €240m in 2023 and €145m in 2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172503#Comment_121172503

I didn't realise so much was going towards new roads

Regardless, there's a sizable chunk being spent on roads

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/2381e-626-million-for-regional-and-local-roads-announced/

Not to mention the near half billion recently announced for the N5.

Roads are not shy of investment, quite the opposite based on figures like those.

spacetweek

I wouldn't count €626 million on regional and local roads as much really. That's just keeping them paved - steady state stuff.

KrisW1001

It's still a cost, and it still has to come out of the DoT roads budget.

cjpm

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/failure-to-invest-in-road-projects-could-lead-to-77-deaths-over-next-five-years-transport-body-warns-eamon-ryan/a1836048566.html

Thread should be renamed Roads Logjam due to possibly the worst Government in States history giving Transport Ministry to party of idiots in order to buy their support.

Seth Brundle

I'd like to see the methodology used by TII. It is worrying if they predict 6 fatalities on the N4 between Leixlip and Maynooth given that it is not the N4 but M4. However, 6 fatalities within a 5 year window along a stretch that hasn't had any fatalities seems a strange and unusual jump. They'd hardly be making up the numbers, would they?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196071#Comment_121196071

If the M4 is congested as it is, it means that people will take alternative routes to avoid congestion on the M4. This includes the old N4 (R148) and any other feasible alternative route to complete their journey. The roads not labelled M4 are less safe and many of them include rat runs on by roads and through residential areas. Having traffic on these routes will increase risk to pedestrians and cyclists on these routes in addition to adding more general traffic to these unfit roads.

Sure, not widening the M4 will keep volumes lower on the M4 but the idea that it reduces net traffic along that corridor is disputable.

marno21

Four stretches of road were flagged in the NDP 2018 proposal for being particularly bad for head on and fatal head on collisions:

The N2 between Ardee and Emyvale

The N4 between Mullingar and Rooskey

The N20 along its entire undivided length

The N22 between Ballincollig and Farranfore

On these stretches, there were 6 projects proposed in the NDP. One is built (N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney), one is in planning (M20) and four were defunded by the Minister (N2 x2, Farranfore-Killarney and the N4 Mullingar-Longford). The N2 in north Monaghan has been refunded by money from the EU Connecting Europe facility which will be matched by the Department of Transport.

It's all well and good saying that reducing speed limits will solve all our road safety issues but if these routes are being flagged for head on collisions and the improvement works are being defunded it's a bit rich talking about road safety.

Sam Russell

Well they made up the name of the road, so who knows.

Norteño

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196204#Comment_121196204

My thoughts exactly.