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Teaching about Gender

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    This is my last reply to you princess as you are incapable of understanding basic points.

    In the 1960s the psychological community taught that homosexuality was a disorder. They were obviously wrong

    Same with repressed memory syndrome which you have consistently dodged. They were wrong the psychlogical community

    There is no hard science behind this. To be fair this is a huge problem for the psychlogical community. Even the psychiatric community.

    So basically the whole thing is psychlogical and thus prone to error

    Thus teaching an ideology based on a feeling is a mistake.

    No blood test. No brain scan

    I can take anti depressants but there is no test to determine if I'm lying or not.

    I have a friend who got early retirement by claiming to be depressed. Most positive person I know



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I'm blocking you now princess. The psychlogical movement is prone to huge error but you are treating it with huge reverence.

    It is a movement based on a feeling.

    Let adults deal with their feelings but keep it away from kids.

    You twisted my words on homosexuality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You're not making any points - you're just throwing out random conspiracies. If you could prove any of them had any relevance or there was any scientific proof that of a likelihood that any of this was coming into the classroom, I'd stick around - but before I have a chance to ask an honest question, or get some clarification, you've gone off and posted a compltely new even wilder accusation.

    It's like Fox Mulder in the early x-files episodes.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Not that your that interested in actual science that doesn't back your clear preformed opinion but brain scans show differences between cis and trans people. There's quite a few fMRI studies on this, smallosh cohorts but significant and repeated results, again underpinning this is a very real phenomenon, if one we don't fully understand. Science is wonderful in that it's constantly evolving and changing, unlike a lot of people.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/


    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,676 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I guess like everything else that children find out about.. that's how parents & society pass on culture & values.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Sure I will look at the data. The princess ignores the fact that homosexuality was once treated as a disorder only 50 years ago or less but seems to think psychlogiy should be always be treated as gospel



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Random conspiracies? Really

    So psychlogiy never said homosexuality was a disorder?

    Never said repressed memories should be used legally?

    Had come up with a definite test that points to a way to ensure that kids don't make life changing mistakes about their body?

    It's a conspiracy to say a feeling might be wrong?.

    Racism was built on a feeling that blacks were inferior

    There is no meta study that proves trans is real. A meta study

    Create a psychlogical condition and watch the kids fall into it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Meta studies are just a collection of studies, generally in fields where consensus can be difficult due to confounding variables. Your talking like they are some gold standard, they arent. I'm not sure how much scientific training you have or how familiar you are with the Neuro field but the fMRI data from multiple studies is solid......you could tell a cis and trans male and/or female apart from the scans alone if your dead set on binning psychology. This isn't a social contagion. There are lots more nuanced conversations to be had around this topic and I am genuinely puzzled by the ASD link and will follow the field but this bizarre "its not science" business is unhelpful and is very much in the same vein as the "I did my own research but don't know what an antigen is" anti vax brigade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Princess is right your arguments are all over the place with all sorts of random off the wall bizarre tangents that make no sense.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭briangriffin


    1. Suffering

    Gender Dysphoria is a medical diagnosis according to DSM V as was Gender Identuty disorder in DSM IV - being trans is now self identifiable that is why there is a marked increase in Trans people. Self ID means anyone can self Identify they dont even have to know what that means for them..

    When I used the term suffer i did it in the medical context of suffering from a cold not in a perjorative way, I can imagine how suffering from actual gender dysphoria would cause someone a lot of pain.

    2, "suggesting people come out as trans because they have been sexually abused or are autistic or suffer from other mental health problems"

    Its not a suggestion because there is a wealth of evidence from professionals with huge concerns over this.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8596151/

    3, "suggesting that being trans is not real people are being indoctrinated into it"

    I'm not suggesting that people are because most adults have the capacituy to decide for themselves what they beleive to be truth based on their life expereince, maturity and common sense. I'm suggesting that for 5 year olds to teenagers the amount of misinformation peddled as sceintific fact is detrimental to their capacity to judge for themselves truthfully.

    4, "born in the wrong body"

    Suggesting this makes me transphobic?

    https://time.com/4350574/jazz-jennings-transgender/

    Is Jazz Jennings transphobic for suggesting it??

    Is Munroe Burgndoff transphobic for saying that for years? https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/09/27/munroe-bergdorf-born-in-the-wrong-body-mermaids-trans-experience/

    Is Susie Green and her child who is a trans woman? Is Mermaids the trans charity?

    If thats transphobisc then what complete non science mentally damaging nonsense have all these people been talking about for the past decade?

    Put your fingers in your ears and keep shouting transphobe at everyone who you disagrree with but most importantly dont ever discuss the actual problems with gender ideology.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭briangriffin


    SO what is a childs reference point for knowing they have incongruence between their minds internal sens of gender and their bodies? We are going to say they just "know" is that it ? A child just knows and because they say so we must affirm that beleif regardless of our responsibilty as parents to protect them from all harm. How does a boy know that he really is a girl? is it the gender dysphoria or can they just be claiming they are trans where no gender dysphoria has to exist any longer? ANd if no gender dysphoria is present as a responsible adult in their lives should we affirm them anyway because what possiblke harm could come from affirming them?


    I use the term brain washing because the gender unicorn of the gender bread man is completely and utterly baseless in science. How many genders are there? should we teach children all 80 genders should we teach them all the different pronouns? Its indoctrinating an entire generation into beleving that the most important aspect about themselves is their gender and that their gender may not align with their biological sex and that to align better we can change their sex to match their gender through medical transitioning. Explai the increase in referrals to Gender clinics in USA UK and Ireland?


    No my children dont get a say in learning about gender identities in primary school. They are children I'm an adult Il decide what is good for them and what is not. Thats the job of a parent.


    Looking for consistency in an an ideology that lacks any - here is a hell of lot of zero consistency


    I beleive that there are people who self identify as being Trans without meeting any of the DSM criteria for gender dysphoria. I beleive they identify as trans do you beleive that anyone can become trans by just saying they are trans?


    It has no basis in scioence - use medical transition is scientific in the sense that it is medical procedures

    Science would cosist of a scientific basis for gender affirming care -

    Affirmative care was adapted despite studies stating that 80% of gender questioning "trans" children revert to their natal sex following puberty. A fact Polly Carmichael the director of Tavistock was aware of and expressed her own doubts initially about the experimental treatments at Tavistock in the early 2010s. "The question is, if you halt your own sex hormones so that your brain is not experiencing puberty, are you in some way altering the course of nature?" ‘[T]he debate revolves around the reversibility of this intervention—physical and also psychological, in terms of the possible influence of sex hormones on brain and identity development’ She said this in 2010 and then oversaw tavistock and failed to monitor, record and follow up with thousands of children who he put through experimental treatment in her service. SHe could have settled all debate by just keeping a record and following up with the thousands of children she put on experimental treatments. So why on earth didnt she - if w e had the follow up data on the 1000s of children that have passed through Tavistock and how they are predominantly living their lives as the opposite sex and hasve had better outcomes then it would be hard to argue against that - but Tavistock had to have a court order placed on them to publish the only study they commisioned which said that 98% of children who received puberty blockers went on to cross sex hormones.

    Explain to me why we should be following affirmative care? bearing in mind the following

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/sweden-pulls-way-back-from-gender-affirming-care-for-children/




    We are introducing a bill on conversion therapy specifically to stop children receiving talk therapy because its seen as conversion therapy when sweden and finland are doing the exact opposite they are pulling social and medical transiotionig and doubling down on talk therapy. SO who is pushing this in Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Everything absolutely everything you come out with is extremely pejoratively judgemental and all about being trans is negative, wrong, shameful, non existent.

    Of course people are going to call your views transphobic.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭briangriffin




  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Yes. I never countered these points because you never made them - you just went on three unconnected seemingly transphobic rants in three consecutive posts. I stopped reading after that because i felt you'd abandon those too if I commented, so what was the point?

    When you clarify the points I made aout Deana Wilson Atkins and Gingerbread and the connection.between the two instead of abandoning the train of thought, we can move on.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I think we both answered that yesterday morning.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    My main point is that psychology has made many errors in the past. In the 1950s it still viewed homosexuality as a disorder. Repressed memory is another one. Pure bullshit.

    So now we have another mainly psychlogical theory that can't be definitely proved.

    I have seen posts above about brain scans but I'm skeptical about those being definite but will explore

    You never acknowledge any of the above princess.

    As to the ginger bread man why should I bother replying to that when you ignored her earlier comments saying a feeling not biology or any hard science is to be ignored in determining gender.

    I think we are going to have to park talking to each other princess as we seem to be going in circles



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Tes

    Yes in that post i was but my central point remains - psychology has been dreadfully wrong before and I gave a clear example of the way homosexuality was classed as a disorder.

    There are many issues with other psychlogical assessments even today. Huge criticism of the way they classify things

    Look at drop the disorder by Jo Watson

    So until we have more concrete evidence and I do accept that some evidence on brain scans might indicate a practical test bút I doubt we have definite evidence yet.

    So we should teach kids that they can be the individual they want to be and adopt traditional traits from what ever gender but I would steer them away from nonsense like declaring themselves a boy or girl or pretending a trans man is the same as a biological male.

    If they want to explore it as an adult go for it but no kid should be given medication.

    Lots of evidence it's a phase or kids just become gay.

    The whole trans thing is mainly ideology masquerading as science

    When we have more evidence let's look.

    Meanwhile read trans - when ideology meets reality by Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Off the wall bizarre line of thinking

    Psychology used to think homosexuality was a disorder therefore everything trans could all be a big mistake.

    Your thoughts on this are meandering all over the place with all sorts of weird unconnected tangents.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    This is again very odd ramblings with claims that trans does exist and doesn't exist

    Helen Joyce is deeply and disgustingly transphobic and wants to pretty much eradicate trans people out of existence.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I have outlined how a number of the views you expressed in this thread are transphobic.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    Yes we did - and it resulted in people begin forced to grow up in shame and secrecy, and now seventy years on you want to make the same mistake of sweeping it under the carpet instead of bringing it out into the open and discussing it thus removing the taboo and denying people access to the information they need.

    Post edited by Princess Consuela Bananahammock on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Look you have no biological test for this so until we have one then stay away from kids.

    There are countless more examples of where psychlogy got it wrong.

    Huge criticism has been made about the psychiatric bible but if you want to zero in on just homosexuality go for it.

    I'm not denying some people feel this way but that doesn't mean public policy should fall over itself because of a feeling.

    I'm open to having my mind changed with verifiable facts not just a feeling.

    But just like the Catholic orthodoxy you have Liberal orthodoxs like you who don't want be critical of the Liberal consensus.

    Sheep basically

    Good luck



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,998 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Your arguments are off the wall bizarre 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Being trans isn't real because it can't be biologically tested.

    There's no such thing as trans because science (despite the fact reams and reams of scientific acknowledgement that trans people do exist)

    Maybe a few people do "feel" trans

    Some psychologists said homosexuality was a disorder 70 years ago therefore being trans isn't real

    Everyone who thinks trans people exist is a sheep

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Can you tell me what exactly is a biological test for gender....? As opposed to the done at birth?

    Anyway, not relevant: we're talking about education now actually transitioning, remember?

    Huge criticism has been made about the psychiatric bible but if you want to zero in on just homosexuality go for it.

    Bullshit.

    I'm open to having my mind changed with verifiable facts not just a feeling.

    Bullshit.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I think you know the answer. There is no scientific test for this. None

    Do what you want as a adult but I have concluded it should be kept away from kids

    It's too full of contradictions as that article - which you didn't bother to read shows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman



    Google Paula kaplam and her criticism of the DSM

    I was not allowed post a link for some strange reason

    Or

    https://www.profolus.com/topics/criticisms-of-psychology-as-a-scientific-discipline/



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I'm sorry to burst your Liberal bubbles. It seems having thrown out God you simply replaced psychology as your new religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    A conservative opinion piece is not science.

    Former head of talent at Nikelodeon - a kid's TV channel, nothing to do with science.

    Not seeing relevancy of the second one.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    What exactly do you mean by biological test? What is it you want proven?

    That trans exists?

    That it's real in a particular person?

    That it would be a positive change for a person?

    I mean, it's a bit like doing a biological test for vegeatarianism, isn't it? Can you do a biological test to prove someone doesn't like meat? No - it's all in your head, so therefore your logic, there's no such thing as vegetarianism? Or it's a very dangerous thing and should be banned because we don't have enough information?

    Post edited by Princess Consuela Bananahammock on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



This discussion has been closed.
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