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Teaching about Gender

  • 25-04-2023 11:48am
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I have no strong opinions about this except that perhaps there is too much focus on it. I have yet to meet a trasngender Pupil. I dont thinik its that common but every case seems to be in the papers .

    I know there are plans to alter the curriculum to teach this at Secondary. Gender studies. Personally, I think it should not be taught at Primary because kids are too young but Im open to be convinced otherwise.

    Has anybody already taught this?

    I dont want a thread on wheher a transman is the same as a biological man etc just whether its been taught already. In some form



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I won't reach it because I do not think it's a totally established thing.

    What I mean is we do certainly know there are people who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    What we have not agreed on is a trans male the same as a biological male.

    We have also not agreed that adolescents should be taken seriously on this issue.

    Until the two questions are legally established we should not proceed.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I would agree on that. That it should be taught the basic idea

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I think it's fair enough to explain basic gender dysphoria.

    But I think the broader rights issue is a minefield and bar stating the law it's best to avoid.

    The consent issue /porno issue will in some respects be more complicated and apply to a way bigger number.

    It's all going to be very tick the box as you could spend months talking about it and various legal aspects etc but let's face it that won't happen

    But when Johnny is dragged before a court or going to rehab for porn addiction we can safely say we ticked a box

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,982 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78

    this is a very tricky one, trans economist deirdre mccloskey has said she knew from a very young age that she was in the wrong body, since she was born in the 40's, talking about this was a major no no, for most of her life, until she eventually changed in the 90's, at that stage she was long term married with kids, changing caused major problems in her family, and of course a collapse of her marriage, and her relationship with her kids. maybe if she was thought at a young age, its okay to feel as such, it could have prevented such turmoil for a family, thankfully she seems to have mended her relationship with her kids, but of course her marriage is long gone, even though she still calls her ex wife, the love of her life, theres something serious to be learned there!

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I think we are a long long way away from the text book changes you are talking about and they probably won't happen

  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭ FoxForce5

    Just had a quick gander the kids active science JC book. Has multiple references to female/woman / mother in relation to sexual reproduction and anatomy. So if I'm reading this correct the sphe? Teacher will tell the students that a man can have a vagina, breastfeed and give birth, meanwhile across the hall the science teacher will say the opposite?

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,072 ✭✭✭✭ TheValeyard

    Everyone will be taking a common sense approach to this. Same as other parts of the SPHE curriculum.

    I am holding fire on this until I see the text of it. Teaching gender issues, dysphoria, trans issues, all fine makes sense. These people exist in the real world so students should be educated on it.

    Anything however that's a plain lie or acting as some sort of sudosciecne in relation to gender or biological sex would be stamped out fairly quickly

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    Good point but I won't go near it with a barge pole. I also think that the government is ticking boxes because there is huge anti trans propaganda out there on social media and kids are way way more sceptical of teachers than in the past.

    The government needs to inform people. Tackle social media.

    Parent's - God forbid they might be asked to parent and teach kids!

  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭ sonar44

    If a transgender person is 'in the wrong body' then in what way is someone who has downs syndrome, for example, in the correct one?

  • Registered Users Posts: 36,638 ✭✭✭✭ Annasopra

    And thats all that is actually being proposed when there is discussion on teaching about it at primary schools. Age appropriate information.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra

    Three copies of a chromosome instead of 2 which most of us have. You would have 2 chromosome 21s but person with Down's Syndrome would have 3. It's a good area to introduce the complexity of human sex designations, the very binary XX XY doesn't hold up scientifically. You always end up with questions from the class around the c/somal variations so it's often a good time to explain a little about the variety that exists in humans. They are always rivited by it so it can be an easy win in getting the topic taught and allowing them to ask questions they might not otherwise. It's come up in teaching gender roles in Home Ec too. Again, it was really only at the start this was an issue, and staff really wanted to get the words right, learn the vocab properly ect, we had a good mix of staff so that helped too with some a lot more experienced or comfortable from their own life experience. As with any social issue, you dont know where the kids (or staff) are coming from that morning so approach carefully and with lots of empathy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,856 ✭✭✭ jackboy

    XX and XY does hold up scientifically, everything else is an anomaly where something went wrong.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I'm stíl Lost but I haven't done science since 1985

    Are you saying that some males have female chromosomes and vice a versa?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭ am_zarathustra

    Human genetics is awash with variation, it's a central tenent, without variation you wouldn't have evolution. It's generally people with a cursory knowledge who think it's so black and white, no scientists I know believe this. Hormones are turned up and down, promotors acting as dimmer switches on almost all genes. Hormonal changes during gestation can have massive effects. Its a messy thing Biology, especially developmental biology. Every variation doesn't have to be negative and we don't have to stigmatise people for being a little more different. That narrow view of humanities differences is actually very sad. Who are any of us to decide what is right or wrong?

    XX and XY are typical, that's all. You yourself could have one of the other varients or someone in your family and you wouldn't know. Things are just not that clear cut and the more we learn the less clearcut they are. The first person to have a genetic "abnormality" as you term it in duplicating the lactose gene led to most genetically Irish people being able to process milk products as adults and therefore survive the winters. Many of us are decendents of these people, lucky our ancestors had the variations to survive harse winters!

  • Registered Users Posts: 31,708 ✭✭✭✭ Princess Consuela Bananahammock

    It should be taught as theory - but then, as with all theories, it should be balanced. Take for example:

    What I mean is we do certainly know there are people who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

    This is fact. Most people know and accept this.

    What we have not agreed on is a trans male the same as a biological male.

    This is opinion, and while I believe it should be taught, it should also be taught to kids that this IS an opinion and they have the right to agree or disaree with it.

    Saying 'we don't know so we shouldn't teach it' sounds to me a bit daft because there is a huge amount of stuff science doesn't know - we should still teach it, but with that baseline: 'we don't know for sure because either we have a) different opinoins, or b) not enough research'.

    To me, your stance sounds a little too much like sweep-it-under-the-carpet which an age of internet-savy teenagers is dangerous. Would you rather the kids get the info from a teacher or from a twitter/instagram/tiktok infliuencer? Because them not getting info is not going to happen.

    I'd also like to see people directly effected by this giving input (not nessecarily teachers) - people who have transitioned, people who have transitioned and regretted it, people who agree with the a transman is a real man, people who don't, and so on.

    Do NOT ask me how I define the terms "man", "woman", "male" or "female" when you reply to this post. You know the answer and it's probably irrelevant to the discussion :)

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    I have since read a decent criticism of the whole trans movement. There isn't a huge amount of science behind it.

    Trans-when Ideology meets reality by Helen Joyce

    Seemingly a man can declare himself a woman without any operation and expect to be fully accepted as one.

    Thankfully in Ireland, we have avoided giving kids puberty blockers. The vast majority of kids who feel trapped in the wrong body grow out of it and become simply Gay.

    Bar teaching the very basics-this should be avoided.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭ Bobtheman

    Im not quite sure what this implies for Trans. Could you explain it for me?

    A man who is biologically born a man remains a biological male at heart even after an operation despite whatever chromosomes he has. Despite outward appearances

    I have no issue calling him /her etc but beyond that im not sure