Teaching about Gender

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632049#Comment_120632049

Is there a scientific consensus?on this?

Bobtheman

https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Another perspective

Bobtheman

https://adflegal.org/article/gender-dysphoria-expert-discusses-science-regarding-gender-identity

There is no scientific consensus.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120616261#Comment_120616261

Being trans isnt a sexual fetish 😕

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632625#Comment_120632625

Poster specifically said, "My opinion is that...."

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120619754#Comment_120619754

Can I ask a question then - If your principle is do no harm and the child is definitely trans and the child is telling you consistently and persistently they are trans but you are telling the child that they are too young to know their own mind - is that not harmful?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624343#Comment_120624343

Sexual fetishes are nothing to do with gender

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624563#Comment_120624563

The poster is reading Helen Joyces book

Helen Joyces views on gender are frankly disgusting hateful transphobia aimed at eradicating trans people

This is Helen Joyce talking about trans people - Keeping the numbers down, trans people are damaged and a problem to a sane world

“And in the meantime, while we’re trying to get through to the decision-makers, we have to try to limit the harm and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition,” Joyce said.

“That’s for two reasons – one of them is that every one of those people is a person who’s been damaged. But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world.”

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/06/03/helen-joyce-transgender-lgbtq/

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625356#Comment_120625356

Oh look - a major homophobic/transphobic organisation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

https://www.glaad.org/gap/organization/heritage-foundation

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633116#Comment_120633116

I'm not surprised.

Poster has no problem demanding scientific eveidence from other posters, but is very slow to dish it out themselves. Either quietly ignores the request or quotes someone I'm never heard of and who has no scientific qualifications in the relevant field.

Pure confirmation bias.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633136#Comment_120633136

He used the DeVos institute earlier in the thread as a reference.....unironically.

victor8600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632685#Comment_120632685

Actually there is a consensus on many points, just as there are open questions. What's not questioned by scientists is the existence of trans people, and that there are biological differences between people on the gender spectrum. Being trans is not a fetish, or a fashionable fad (though it does not exclude those). Would you deny the evidence published by the US government institutions on the topic? If you deny it, then I'll be happy to leave you in your ignorance.

But let us imagine that you do not deny that trans people exist. Should not then school children be taught about the topic in school rather than from unverified sources on the web?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633308#Comment_120633308

Plus all the absolute bunkum and drivel about transing the gay away, trans young people merely being mentally ill, cross dressing men, sexual fetishises....

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120631203#Comment_120631203

I wouldn't talk specifics but very few schools would have more from experience. It's still not a large number overall. I've actually completely forgotten when it comes to a lot of kids, I suppose I just view it as their business. Where the education bit comes in is actually around language.....even just what trans as opposed to cis mean. You'd be amazed how often they use words they don't understand and how important this is in creating a level of comfort around a topic. No one is indoctrinating anyone and certainly the parents would be at the centre of any conversations. I've seen no contagion effect or anything like it. It's a he'd road to be choosing for yourself. Kids would actually say that sometimes, like it must be hard for them.

When talking about effect and time spent on the topic, I'd imagine Tictoc would have a much better chance of swaying feelings or sentiment in the vast majority of 12 years olds lives. I'm not happy saying that either.

Casually used LGBTQ, racist, sexist or culturally insensitive comments would be also the reason for education more generally. Kids can repeat words they hear.....or are getting wildly biased information and are responding to it. Gentle reminders and explaintion is warranted here to create a safe environment for everyone. Again, this is standard in a school, nothing for parents to be concerned about I think, mostly just a reminder we don't always understand other peoples lived experience but we should always treat them with respect and decency.

Like I said at the very start, I do understand nervousness around this, its definitely an evolving field but it's not as radical an undertaking as I think it's being made out to be. I remember a teacher saying early in my career "teaching them about those LGB people would turn them all queer". No that long ago really but shows how society changes.

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629987#Comment_120629987

Suicide ideation is rapidly increasing for all young people today, again surveys carried out by ngos who promote gender affirmation and proclaim that young Trans teens will attempt suicide if not affirmed are not reliable. Your study there references the highly flawed 48% attempted suicide rate of 27 trans youth a British study that is critiqued here https://www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

Nearly 20 percent of Gen z in a recent survey in the US now proclaim they are LGBT+ that's up from 16% just two years ago, social contagion is undoubtedly affecting this generation with trans and non binary identities increasing. Tavistock had a 4000% rise in referrals for gender dysphoria in the past decade.

These children tell similar stories - they researched on the internet youtube or tiktok and had a light bulb moment that explained what was wrong with them all along, they were trans these children https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity

yet 90% of trans people who went through the irelands gender clinic in 2022 may be autistic and have other mental health comorbidites https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/up-to-90pc-of-people-using-gender-service-may-be-autistic-audit-finds/42034649.html?s=08

It's not scaremongering on the side of those not wanting children to transition. It's child safeguarding. How on earth could a child of 5-12 possibly understand the implications of socially transitioning then starting puberty blockers and later having gender reassignment surgery? How on earth would affirming a young child's belief as a responsible adult in their lives not solidify that belief.

You quoted examples of karoytyping that proved a binary didn't exist previously now you are saying it is a blunt tool. It is for identifying gender dysphoria or trans people as this study here scientifically proves 98% of those trans identified have the binary xx and xy.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21114769/

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633083#Comment_120633083

What is a child's reference point for definitely being trans? Is it that a girl likes playing soccer or a boy likes dolls? Previous studies had 80-90 % of gender dysphoric children remaining as their natal sex following puberty. The DSM criteria for gender dysphoria was very specific before gender affirming care led to the explosion of cases at tavistock and in the US. Gender affirming care with zero long term studies on outcomes for patients- those patients being the young people who lack the mental capacity to consent to social and medical transition and its implications on there long term health and happiness. Again this is basic child safeguarding.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633729#Comment_120633729

Silly suggestion. Nobody is suggesting a girl who likes soccer or a boy who likes dolls is definitely trans.

Quantum Erasure

Just wondering for any teachers reading, what resources do you use when tackling this subject, or how is it approached?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633718#Comment_120633718

Social contagion theory has been thoroughly debunked and is false, the research on so called social contagion has been found to be flawed. The original publishers of research on it had to apologise.

https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/21888/Study-finds-no-evidence-of-social-contagion-among?autologincheck=redirected

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/18/1057135/transgender-contagion-gender-dysphoria/

https://juliaserano.medium.com/all-the-evidence-against-transgender-social-contagion-f82fbda9c5d4

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633729#Comment_120633729

Bit niave...? There's an entire worldwide organisation to deal with women's/girl's football (world cup is later this year) and plenty of boys like dolls (remember Action Man?).

Gender is something you are, football is something you do.

_Kaiser_

The last dozen or so posts show why this subject has no place being taught in schools TBH.

There is still too much disagreement on the topic as a whole, no common/agreed basis of definition, too much reliance on feelings or others perceptions of those feelings, a dependence on accepting certain ideas that are not based on facts (multiple genders or the idea that gender is a variable etc), reliance on terminology that is seen as offensive, meaningless or denigrating to some (Cis), the need to disregard biology or individual history and so on. It's a controversial ideology rather than science at this point.

Maybe in the future that'll change but right now we are nowhere near ready as adults to agree on this topic so we should absolutely not be passing it on to kids to sort out and thus I'll stand by my original assessment. Beyond instilling that people should be treated with decency and basic respect, and noting that some people feel different about the sex they were born as (and that's OK - but it doesn't mean you have to agree either), this has the potential to cause a lot more harm and confusion and confrontation than is needed.

Anything more than those basics should be left to parents to educate or decide on. It's not up to the teacher or the school to decide what ideologies should be taught unless those same parents sign off on it (in the same way as by sending their kids to a Catholic school, they are acknowledging that elements of the Catholic faith will be taught, advocated for, and indeed practised - communion etc)

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636257#Comment_120636257

Gender is something you are, football is something you do.

How is this being taught in schools, anyone?

Here's the first definition that comes up when I google:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, ...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636348#Comment_120636348

Ah, you're clutching at straws, now.

Most of the last few pages is a small group of people chatting on an Internet forum - it's hardly compelling evidence.

And if we're going to shy away from awkward topics because there's 'disagreement" we might as well give up on education altogether.

I'm.not even going to bother with the Catholic schools argument - you already know (or should know) here the fallacy lies there.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636364#Comment_120636364

It's not. That's the issue up for debate

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636377#Comment_120636377

It's reflective of discussions elsewhere - both on this site and off it. I'm comfortable with it being representative of a wider audience at this time.

Fundamentally it comes down to whether one accepts that someone CAN be whatever gender they identify as, and if you therefore accept that this makes them no different than a biological example of their chosen identity.

Considering this requires accepting their personal feelings/opinion as paramount and disregarding the facts and reality of biology and personal history, not to mention ones own values or opinions (if they are in conflict with this requirement), then it's not surprising there's so much discussion and disagreement on the topic.

I think my position is the fairest compromise. It acknowledges that some feel differently, encourages a basic level respect that ideally should be there anyway, but stays away from these ideological arguments in favour of more of a "each to their own/live and let live" approach.

I can't see why this is a problem unless the issue is that passive acceptance or even just apathy isn't enough, but rather that vocal acceptance and indeed advocacy is the goal.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634089#Comment_120634089

Good point, I think that's the main point of this thread.

Have any teachers responded?

Or is this just another hijacked debate.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633718#Comment_120633718

Yes it mentioned it, along with lots of other papers .......because peer reviewed research always has a part about the current state of the field, objectively, and what the study itself offers.......that's how research works.

You need to check that what you are referencing is peer reviewed and in a decent journal. Some quangos opinion is not the same as verified research. It's like the COVID vaccine threads all over again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636427#Comment_120636427

Sorry, but by what logic is having a wide rang of opinions a good reason for not doing something? There are loads of issues that have a wide rang of opinions - practically every issue has a wide range of opinions - how is doing nothing a good idea...?

Fundamentally it comes down to whether one accepts that someone CAN be whatever gender they identify as, and if you therefore accept that this makes them no different than a biological example of their chosen identity.

Legally, yes they can; and no, no it doesn't. False logic. You rightfully corrected me on this one already, remember (at least, I think it was you...?)

I think my position is the fairest compromise.

What compromise? Each to their own doesn't work if you a transkid/teen and your parents won't talk to you or educate you, and the kids at school bull you because they honestly haven't been taught any better?

Remember the kid who got beaten up in navan last for being gay? You honestly think that won't happen with Trans people?

THAT'S the problem - how are you going to resolve that?

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636761#Comment_120636761

We've had training from a couple of organisations but mostly, for staff, it was around language ect. Whether you agree or not duty of care would suggest being capaple of speaking to a student about these issues in the language used is helpful.

Resources are varied, depends on the year or group. More class would have someone identifying as trans than wouldn't I think so it's very much a part of the school life anyway. It is much less of an issue than people think. I would have touched on it in teaching gender stereotyping and in science. Kids are actually just very curious, like when you teach reproduction........they are almost starved for a place to just ask "what's going on", I'd imagine because it's taboo in other settings.

For me having the correct knowledge and language to talk to students about their lived experience is important and a sign of respect. I do the same for lots of students for lots of reasons to make them feel included. I think people really think teachers have more power than they do, we can't stop the kids spending hours or tictoc or vaping all over the place .........my job would be a hell of a lot easier if teenagers were as suggestable as some are claiming here. We've seen no contagion I can identify, and very little is really said about it in the main. We've other, much bigger issues on a daily basis.

The autism link is worth investigating for sure, so far data is a bit scattershot but it looks like some form of correlation but that isn't causation. Could easily be an epiphenomenon either. We won't know until more research is done.

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634065#Comment_120634065

so what is a childs reference point for saying they are born in the wrong body that a young girl of 5 or 6 is really a young boy?

Is it a feeling they just know about or is it a list of stereotypes that they think make them beleive they are the opposite sex?