Teaching about Gender
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Where did I say they should?
And therin lies the problem: someone mentions trans education (or even social education) and you think it'll be woke/LGBTQ/gingerbread/Tavistock house let loose in the classroom. Believe me, if that was the case, I'd support you 100%.
This whole "think of the kids" is a complete ruse - none of you care about the kids - it's woke-opposition that fuels your arguments.
Sexuality and relationship advice is just as important as first aid if you want health-based courses, and sexuality is already taught (as far as I know?) and no one complained.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Oh, they most certainly do - it's changed massively since I was a kid and that was only two geenrations ago. And in two gnererations iit'll be completely different again. You just have to look at the AI advancements to see that, and that;s only in the last two years or so.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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No I meant it’s good to hear most teachers are of a conservative persuasion ( if that’s indeed true ?)
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Same thing.
If you don't like freedom of expression, sure.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Not in terms of something so innately profound as knowing what sex you are
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It’s not the same thing, not all conservative people are religious
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That's a very minute part of it, but the answer is the same: kids have much more access to information now that even 20 years ago they didn't. That is a huge difference irresepective of what they're using it for.
Also, if you think not knowing what sex you are is a new thing, think again. I'm guessing I'm a good bit older than you are and I was aware that transexual/transgener individuals existed when I was a kid.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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I didn't say they were and you know what I meant.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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In all likelihood they ll just say "whys that man dressed as a woman" and they ll be told some people do that, case closed end of story they really aren't that important.
Id love to hear a conversation between that child and a health expert asking how they discovered they were non binary... or how they discovered non binary in the first place... be interesting to see if they have any relatives that by chance are LGBTQ or influenced by that...
No coincidence that they became of all things "non binary".
And that right there is the problem with teaching easily influenced children about stuff they havent the ability to comprehend properly.
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Id highly doubt that if someone was having a heart attack or something they would stop the person coming to there aid and question there sexual beliefs, first aid far more important.
How are you gonna teach about trans and then refuse to teach about "2spirit" they are essentially different sides of the same coin... why is non binary left out but trans gets centre stage...
How about this how about have an optional class of "trans" awareness and any parents that want to send there kids to that are more than welcome to? win win
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Well I certainly didn’t know they existed as a kid and I wasn’t loosing out either, I’ve never met a transsexual or known someone who identified as “ trans “
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Will the teachers explain the link between transgender people and autism?
If the kids are old enough to be taught about trans issues then surely they are old enough to be taught about the very strong link to autism in transpeople.
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Lets just have "optional" trans awareness, and parents interested in sending there kids to that are more than welcome to but those that dont can leave there kids to focus on factual learning.
I genuinely loath the woke i think they are biggest shower of morons on the planet and when questioned logically they have nothing to back there beliefs, they are dangerous tho to the vulnerable and impressionable other than that i wouldn't even care about the nonsense they believe in.
All they really want is Centre stage attention that's the crux of it that's why they have all these "special" sexualities to stand out in the crowd..
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First pragraph - sorry, but do you seriously think I'm implying that someone's sexual beliefs should be done when administering CPR?? Or did you know I was talking about holistic health and just decide to take the piss?
Second paragrpah - simple - tell them what it is and move on. Takes five minutes - what's the issue? Also, slippery slope fallacy (just in case you want to come back with "but what about....")
Third parapgrpah - fine, if the parents actually teach it honestly and discuss it with their kids. Problem is, judging by the repsonces, parents are going tel tel lthere kids what to think and not discuss it
At this point, you're creating problems for the sake of creating problems.
Then how can you say you have a frame of reference here? Shouldn't you at least do some research before assessing?
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Well, that's your fight with the woke, not education.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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No, the problem is that (as with so many of these "controversial" subjects), mere tolerance, an "each to their own" attitude, or just apathy isn't enough for those advocating for it - they demand submission, recognition, validation and indeed proactive advocating from those not "in the fight".
There's nothing more guaranteed to be counterproductive to swaying opinions than telling people they're hateful/phobic/just plain wrong because they don't agree with you (not necessarily you personally by the way), or trying to marginalise or silence their views because you don't agree with them.
This is a topic which fundamentally requires people to accept the idea that feelings, opinions, emotions, and ideology are more important than science, biology, personal history, and simple empirical facts.
Most people not directly affected by the topic will naturally enough have a problem with that, especially when they are accused of being some sort of bigoted dinosaur as part of the argument.
But as I said in my last post, if nothing else, this thread shows that it's a topic that has no place in schools. Look at the arguments here among mature adults.. How anyone can reasonably suggest that teenagers (or possibly younger kids) should be exposed to this is ridiculous.
All that's needed from the schools, as I've said, is a simple acknowledgement that there are people who feel that they are the opposite sex from what they were born as - and that's OK. It doesn't mean that you have to agree but you should treat them with basic manners and respect regardless.
The rest is up to parents to decide as is their right as parents. If the advocates fear that, then maybe it's the strength (or lack thereof) of their own arguments or approach they should be examining.
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Its the woke pushing for education of woke beliefs...
When i said about CPR was important you implied relationship education is just as important i beg to differ and gave an example.
You said your 5 yr old neice was in a class with a kid that was non binary... in all honesty now do you genuinely believe that child made that decision all of there own accord? That right there is the problem with the "education" you want in schools, impressionable kids then take on what they are learning right or wrong and then suddenly believe they are "non binary" when previously to there "education" they had no concept of it and yet its supposed to be then accepted as there natural state and gets reinforced as a positive. That Childs whole future is potentially altered because of what they were allowed to be exposed to when they didnt even have the capacity to properly understand what was being taught im sorry that's disgusting.
No problem with education but it seems to me it would be more advertising the opportunity to become what ever is being "taught"...
Overall the ideology is dodgy and the people pushing it are questionable at best in there motives...
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None of this challenges my point: poster hates the woke, sees woke in the classroom, hates this for that reason alone.
All that's needed from the schools, as I've said, is a simple acknowledgement that there are people who feel that they are the opposite sex from what they were born as - and that's OK. It doesn't mean that you have to agree but you should treat them with basic manners and respect regardless.
And I've agreed with this in previous posts: an hour or two of basic definitions, some basic exposure to differeing opinoins and done. Doesn't have to take more than an afternoon.
But some posters seem to think it'll be puberty blockers and graphic discriptions because they hate "woke" and this is the hill they choose to fight on. See poster I replied to for an example.
I said all round health was important and you know it, chose to ignore it and be condescending.
I don't have a 5 year old niece, I think that was someone else.
The very fact that you think an ideology is or will be involved proves my point (on top of you deliberately misinterpreting my point about all round health above): this is about your hatred of the woke and all things you consider woke. Not education.
And for that reason, I'm leaving you here.
Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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"Plenty more important things that should be taught to children rather than that stuff, like first aid for a start and other practical skills that will actually be useful in life.
As I said in my previous comment leave sexuality and religion out of schools and keep unbiased factual learning thats fair to everyone."
Amen to that.
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It's what you're born with!
Anything outside of this should be recommended for therapy!
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Congrats on your ability to diagnose a situation based on exactly zero knowledge of it situation.
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You can leave me where ever you like bud I'm just telling you what will be happening, no one is going to want that being taught in schools.
Do with that what you will but that's reality.
And tell me what would you call "non binary" and "2spirit" notions... LGBTQ is essentially an ideology.
Would these classes be a slide show of men dressing as women and the kids being told, physically this man isn't a woman but mentally he believes he is one, so now we all have to believe he is one too.
Literally asking children to pretend something is true when it's fundamentally false to protect the feelings of these people. Its a ridiculous notion.
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You don’t speak for everyone.
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Exhibit A :
The actual irony of you telling me that I am making up bullshit to support my bias when I've given you reference after reference and all you can peddle is your ideological bullshit. I asked a question and you didnt answer it. Are you saying that kids know they are transgender because they innately know this? What if the childs belief is a mistaken one?? The DSM IV literally states one of its criteria for gender identity disorder is that a child plays stereotypical games of the opposite sex. If a child says they are
Again you seem to Know better than the director of GIDS Polly Carmichael who said the following about children and their gender identity.
"The question is, if you halt your own sex hormones so that your brain is not experiencing puberty, are you in some way altering the course of nature?" ‘[T]he debate revolves around the reversibility of this intervention—physical and also psychological, in terms of the possible influence of sex hormones on brain and identity development’
So you think a prebubescent child knows what gender they are because thats who they are? DO you think socially transitioning children to the opposite sex in primary school is ok then? Thats an ideological viewpoint. Is Polly Carmichael Transphobic for saying the above?
You haven't a clue about any of the nonsense your spouting. You have two trans friends and suddenly you are an expert on gender dysphoria in children, yes I've met some gender dysphoric children one in particular who had a common sense approach from her parents and did not listen to Trans groups or ideological idiots who told them to affirm their Childs belief. The child has thankfully resolved any dysphoria and is thriving. ANd that is the crux of the issue here introducing gender ideolgy in our schools and having it on the curriculum will result in Belog to and Teni writing that curriculum from their ideological viewpoint. They have already lobbied the NCCA about it. The only study on transgender children done in ireland was done by Aoife Neary in Limerick and it was done in conjunction with TENI who referred the participants to Neary as they had already contacted TENI for support. Its almost a carbon copy of the influence Mermaids (A trans Charity in the UK) have had on Uk Policy and medical practice. That study has been referenced numerous times by TENI as the lobby for more influence on educational settings.
In a written submission in 2018 TENI wrote the following : the bolded study is they one they were partners in and in fact referred the children studied directly from
"TENI seeks to improve conditions and advance the rights and equality of trans people and their families. Despite significant progress in the past years, Ireland remains a place where it is difficult for trans people to lead safe, healthy and integrated lives. TENI is dedicated to ending transphobia, including stigma, discrimination and inequality. Research suggests that expressions of gender identity are commonly made in childhood and adolescence. A recent study with 32 trans children, aged 5 to 12, indicates that the gender identity of these children was deeply held and is not the result of confusion about gender identity. The researchers noted, “[O]ur results support the notion that transgender children are not confused, delayed, showing gender atypical responding, pretending, or oppositional — they instead show responses entirely typical and expected for children with their gender identity.”1 In Ireland, there is an increasing number of transgender and gender variant young people. There is also strong evidence that transgender and gender variant young people experience high levels of bullying and discrimination in Irish schools as a result of their gender identity and gender expression.
What improvements can be made through new provision? To promote inclusion and diversity in our education system, there is a pressing need for a strategic approach to supporting transgender and gender variant young people. We would suggest that DES invest in the following activities: 1. Develop a trans training programme. DES should partner with TENI to provide awareness training on gender identity and diversity to staff through the Education Centres. This would be a strategic, pro-active and efficient way of addressing educational disadvantage and promote the active inclusion of transgender and gender variant young people. 2. Develop training resources. These resources would be geared towards teachers in primary and post-primary schools to facilitate a student’s transition (e.g. how to inform the other students, how to deal with parents who may have questions, what are the practicalities that need to be considered).
The video on a social transition in primary school from the INTO which i've linked in an earlier post being one such resource.
7. Prioritising Early Years: a. Comment on the approach contained in the programme for a partnership Government (are we capturing the essential issues, are there additional matters we should take into account) We would very much welcome additional National Educational Psychologists (NEPs), who would have the appropriate training to support very young students who are gender variant, providing immediate support for critical times in a student’s life, times when they may be experiencing high levels of gender dysphoria, or need to make a social transition. b. How should progress on prioritising Early Years be measured? c. What would you consider to be the priority actions and outcomes in this area? Changes to the curriculum to promote awareness of gender identity and diversity and training for teaching staff to support all students as well as answering questions that other parents may have."
All of this lobbying for an ideology that has zero long term studies on the early social transitioning of children in primary school and the affects this has on those children. It's completely experimental as The director of GIDS herself has acknowledged and what did she do after acknowledging it she failed to follow up with the patients she was caring for. The PDST recommends on its websites to teachers to use gender neutral language now for primary school - Think about teaching puberty in gender neutral terms, so that it is inclusive of all students (e.g. bodies with a vagina and bodies with a penis rather than girls’ bodies and boys’ bodies)
Exhibit B
5 year olds are relevant because 5 year olds in Ireland have already transitioned socially and as I have shown above the lobby groups have prioritized Early years.
The rest of that is nonsense. I'm not making any bullshit up its all happening already because not one person has spoken out against this ideology being passed as fact and being peddled as researched science to our children but I can guarantee you that people are beginning to wake up to it.
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I made up nothing https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33854450/
This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33-12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07-39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters.
At the time of follow-up, using different metrics (e.g., clinical interview, maternal report, dimensional measurement of gender dysphoria, a DSM diagnosis of GID, etc.), these studies provided information on the percentage of boys who continued to have gender dysphoria (herein termed “persisters”) and the percentage of boys who did not (herein termed “desisters”).2 Of the 53 boys culled from the relatively small sample size studies (Bakwin, Davenport, Kosky, Lebovitz, Money and Russo, Zuger), the percentage classified as persisters was 9.4% (age range at follow-up, 13–30 years). In Green (47), the percentage of persisters was 2% (total n = 44; Mean age at follow-up, 19 years; range, 14–24); in Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis (52), the percentage of persisters was 20.3% (total n = 59; Mean age at follow-up, 19.4 years; range, 16–28); and in Steensma et al. (51), the percentage of persisters was 29.1% (total n = 79; Mean age at follow-up, 16.1 years; range, 15–19). Across all studies, the percentage of persisters was 17.4% (total N = 235), with a range from 0 to 29.1%.3 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full
There is very little data on girls because as I referenced in a previous post the explosion of girls identifying as trans is only a recent phenomenon roughly correlating to social media popularity - ( I'm not 100% suggesting causation because that is not something I have definitive proof of but you can be damn sure its not a coincidence)
Medicalized means after social transition given puberty blockers (medicine) and then gender reassignment surgery (mastectomy and top or bottom surgery)
SO when I mentioned previously that your 2 friends were probably persisters I wasn't being an asshole I was assuming they transitioned after puberty and had some life experience.
Conclusion: Gender ideology has no place in our schools.
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Exhibt A - you asked an honest question, I gave you an honest answer. Now you tell me you had an answer all along...?
And the answer I gave you was "in some cases, yes". Some, not all.
You asked "is it a girl who likes soccer?" - that's a transphobic statement. What do you think would happen if you asked that in a girls' soccer team? They'd be pissed off with you for one thing.
Exhibit B - the topic is teaching, not transitioning.
Unless you can point to orangised trans education of 5 year olds in classrooms the fact that you've twisted the topic into actual transition - and implued falsly that 5-year olds are transitioning medically - proves that you are transphoic.
Exhibit C - a servey that is 20-30 years old? And even so how does it prove your conclusion?
Here's something more recent:
At the end of this period, most youth identified as binary transgender youth (94%),
So yeah - cherry picked an old study and pass it off as something you checked.
Plus It's got absolutely no bearing on your conclusion. How could it?
It's like "I know a 5 year olds who was given trans medication and it's all dangerous so no teenager should ever be introduced to the subject."
And you don't see the misrepresetnation and hysteria?
Now we need to get back on topic (this is my fault, so apologies) - we're talking about education, not actual trasnitioning.
Clarify one thing for me: do you or do you not think that trans education will involve information and encouragement about how to transition?
Post edited by Princess Consuela Bananahammock onEverything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Paywalled. Does it mention the affirmative care model?
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You really don't get it do you. I didnt cherry pick a study there are about ten other studies referenced in that one. It was updated to 2021. The participants are older because its a longterm study.My point is that these studies were done before affirming the child's belief (mistaken one in up to 90% of cases) was introduced. If a child is allowed to go through puberty then the dysphoria may resolve itself because puberty cures not hinders the dysphoria in that cohort. Gender affirming care is an experimental form of "care" your study has referenced a mean age of 6 when socially transitioning and 2/3 were then put on puberty blockers.
Do you think socially transitioning a child at 6 is a neutral act or do you think adults facilitating that solidify the child's belief? Hilary Cass in her review and many others have stated its not a neutral act. It comes back to a child believing what you tell them repeatedly and if you affirm there mistaken beleif of course it solidifies and the tavistock study proves that 98% of those who go on to puberty blockers have cross sex hormones, so far from proving your point,that study is further evidence of life long medicalisation of children through experimental gender affirming care. And your study is limited to 5 years.
My point discussing this is that gender affirming care is the model proposed by TENI and Belong to and they are advising NCCA about the new curriculum and what it should involve. They will push gender affirming care as the model as they have with resources i have linked to previously. I don't know what the new curriculum will have in it I only know of resources from in-service days and emails that are idelogical driven, I can only assume it will be more of the same times 100 if there is a strand unit on gender ideology in the curriculum. My second point is that within every profession there are extremists. In America Canada and UK there have been examples of over zealous teachers using its inclusion on the curriculum to push this ideology as scienctific fact on children.
There is already a 2 page exploration of gender identity in the busy bodies booklet in it the following is stated
" if you have questions about your gender identity puberty can be a particularly confusing time. Your body may be changing in ways that doesn't match your sense of yourself"
We already teach children in primary school to respect people of all colour and creed, the golden rule applies it applies to trans people same as everybody else if they come up in conversation in school. In well over a decade teaching, the topic of trans men or women has never been brought up by any child for discussion.
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Why wouldn't children be taught about this in schools?
Surely kids are taught about respect for other people, other beliefs, other nationalities and religions?
It really doesn't matter whether someone's parent likes to 'believe' in trans people or not, it is the law that they exist and to ignore that and just pretend to kids that they don't exist, seems ridiculous.
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