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FI Charts ( T120+ onwards) Winter 2022/2023 **READ MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,679 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    There is a wide range of possible outcomes with what can be considered a cold spell and there is a heightened risk of cold weather regardless of the major SSW due to MJO. However, the major SSW will still be a key player in possibly getting wave-breaking and anticyclonic conditions building further north compared to previously whereby MJO amplification will have been killed off by an intensified polar vortex. Also there's always an increased chance naturally due to the time of year with spring incoming and everything winding down aloft plus we haven't had a March cold spell since the St. Patrick's Day weekend of 2018 unless you count the low cloud/foggy spell of early March 2021.

    Terms like Beast from the East should be reserved for only the top end of easterlies such as 1956, 1987, 1991 and 2018. Just the usual media spouting bullshit that shouldn't even be getting a mention. Pointless and a waste of time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    All I want is one more decent cold spell this winter. The weather can do what it likes afterwards........



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    A few of the GEM runs playing around with things turning colder into the final week of February. There are about 4 members doing this, hopefully more will join over the next couple of days.

    GFS ensembles show nothing too cold yet however there is a definite cooling trend now appearing for the final week of February.

    We are likely to see an increase in members turning cold from the 24th of February over the next few days. Of course upper air temperatures right now are well above average and will stay that way for another 10 days at least.

    Even if we were to get a beast from the east for a few days in February (very unlikely), this will still finish up a milder than average month as temperatures will be well above average for the first 3 weeks of February. The month is also likely to finish up much dryer than average, however the final week is likely to be somewhat more unsettled.

    Winter 2022/2023 will finish up milder than average yet again after a very mild second half to December, a mostly mild January and very mild February for the most part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭esposito


    Can’t believe it was mentioned on Newstalk just heard it on 11 news. Ridiculous.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    The media just can't help themselves with rubbish articles relating to the weather and nothing whatsoever to back up their claims. The next 2 weeks is looking mostly dry and mild. What happens after that remains very much to be seen, we may turn cooler in the final days of the month but it could be just temperatures closer to average. No guarantees of anything properly cold on the horizon other than chasing a few cold outliers for the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    Just an observation regarding GFS ensembles. There is a number of colder members cropping up in the final week of February, which may or may not be linked with the SSW. Worth keeping an eye on over subsequent runs. The 06z is top. Yesterday's 12z is bottom


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Irish Times, the self declared paper of record, also climbing on board



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭esposito


    Now Rte radio 1 mentioning it. Discussing it on Drivetime soon 🙈



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    Yeah the tabloid nonsense is what it always is. Rte has a piece on it now but it’s saying it “could” bring colder weather but that’s not always the case and explains what it is. Nothing wrong with that IMO

    Paul Moore is a climatologist with Met Eireann and he explains that it usually takes two to three weeks for a sudden stratospheric warming event to have an effect. "Every sudden stratospheric warming is different and not all of them disrupt the tropospheric patterns below. For example, the event in January 2019 did not significantly disrupt the tropospheric patterns below and had no effect on the weather patterns over north-western Europe.

    "The event in February 2018 caused major disruption to the tropospheric patterns below and led directly to the colder than average temperatures in Ireland during February and March 2018, including the very cold outbreak from the east culminating with storm Emma at the end of February and beginning of March 2018."




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Is this the first of the colder charts starting to appear? Not that I would take it seriously as its too far away and it's the gfs but it will be interesting to see what happens in a few weeks time.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,932 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    They're magical. So much nature and so much light. Lazy people make excuses about our summer.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Sorry lads, not bad in comparison to where?

    We've the worst summers in Europe if sunshine and heat is your preference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Who TF wants to get broiled to death?

    Our summers have been very good of late, relatively dry, warm, excellent agricultural conditions and only brief spells of extreme high temperatures.

    I've been in the French interior in 42C of heat and there is absolutely nothing to recommend it.

    If the trends keep up the Spanish will be coming to Ireland for their summer breaks!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭highdef


    As much as I LOVE the heat and sunshine, I have to agree with @Larbre34 in that there has been an improvement in Irish summers of late although 2022 is very fresh in my mind so I could be a bit biased. "IF" the Irish summers are becoming warmer, sunnier and calmer (Jesus, I hate the wind!) as a result of climate change, then there is a chance that our climate will become more akin to the likes of Brittany in France, but without risks of extreme heat the odd time in the summer during a heatwave with winds from the east or south east. Maybe I'm just overly wishing!

    Keeping on topic, the latest stratospheric forecast from GFS which shows this for around now:

    This for 24th February. Major warming at the North Pole with the polar vortex completely displaced to Western Russia and barely recognisable:

    And a couple of days later, at the end of the run, the warming over the North Pole is beginning to subside but another is developing quickly over northern Siberia and the Polar Vortex is more or less obliterated. Bear in mind this is the GFS but it is not alone on the SSW idea.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Broiled to death certainly doesn't sound appealing. Which is why I don't holiday in Kuwait.

    But there's somewhere in between Irish summers and Kuwait.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,932 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    20C is plenty for me. And there is nearly 20 hours of light in mid June. Embrace the light. I don't particularly want direct sun burning me when I am out and about and I would be very outdoorsy. Sunbathing is absolutely alien to me. I couldn't do a minute of it.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The effects - if any - of the SSW probably won't show up till March, unless we get a rare quick response in the trop'. So any cold that shows up before then will be linked to the mjo being in phases favourable to blocking. If some of the charts showing a lengthy reversal of the Zonal Winds in the strat are correct then we could have a fairly prolonged cold period in March. If Gerry Murphy is spotted at Dublin Airport within the next couple of week that's all the proof you need that the SSW is going to deliver the goods for us:)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭highdef


    We're all very different with our preferences. I like it closer to 30° here in Ireland, fine with a bit higher, last year being a good example when it was the lower 30's on a few days yet I was perfectly OK with it. And being right in the centre of the country with no sea breeze influence made it all the better. I felt like I was in the countryside in France. Heaven!

    Bear in mind that whether it's 20° or 30° on any given day at your location in Ireland, the sun is the same strength. You still receive the same amount of radiation. So many people associate the perceived temperature with how "strong/burning" the sun is. Ultra violet is what damages/burns but infrared is the heat that you feel on your skin. They're very different things. Ultra violet is always strongest at solar noon (assuming it's clear from dawn to dusk) but infrared often peaks in the mid to late afternoon, hence my the highest temperatures in summer can often be about 16:00/17:00 or thereabouts. A lot of this is due to various surfaces that have been absorbing the suns rays all day that then release it as infrared heat in the afternoon and evening

    I love sunbathing. I spent over two hours (with sunscreen applied) lying on a sun lounger at the house in Longford on one of the hottest days. There wasn't a breath of wind. It was heaven.......from my perspective. Can completely understand how it would not appeal to others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    24-28 would be my preference and if we got actual sunshine durimg those light hours that would be a different story.

    Id argue anyone saying we have good summers has a very short memory because they're only remembering 2022 and 2020.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    Your not far off theirs 17 hours of daylight in June, mid 20s will do me , our houses are built to keep in the heat so at night it's a hot box unlike continental Europe they have air conditioning etc



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,132 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    It's coming...soon



  • Registered Users Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Foggy Jew


    It's the bally ballyness of it that makes it all seem so bally bally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Winter



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    CFS extended finally delivers winter for second half of March on the latest run. Unlikely to verify but in reality I would like if we could get this in the first half of March rather than the second half, but after a mild lame winter at this stage we will have to take what we get.

    Becoming much cooler around the middle of March with winds in from the north-east.

    Paddys Day would be anything but green particularly in Leinster. Lovely Greenland High just where you want it.

    Bitterly cold air and some stiff winds screeching in from the east in a very unstable flow.

    A threat of low pressures bumping into the very cold air could give serious disruption depending on where the track of low pressure sits, particularly on the northern side, however warm sectors with the low pressure could cause problems for coastal areas in particular, However if this verified much of the country would be covered in snow.

    After the low passes we are back in a bitterly cold north-easterly, this would be day 10 of snow potential.

    Remains very cold until the end of the month and milder air eventually breaks through on April 1.

    Now if only this would verify, this is the CFS afterall so several dumpster trucks of salt required for this one. However it is worth noting that the CFS has been playing around with a cold to very cold March for several weeks now, but in reality if we are to get some cold weather in March it is very unlikely to last as long as what I have just posted, I would be expecting something more toned down in reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I would take that if we had the snow storm to end all snow storms in Mid March . A three day blizzard that dumped 70 cms of snow. By the way did the CFS flag the events of five years ago in advance?

    If the CFS is anyway right it could last a while because some charts were showing a fairly lengthy reversal. Also a major SSW can have effects on the trop well up to a month afterwards, sometimes longer. We just have to hope this downwells, the danger is that it might not so we end up with a situation like 2019, a ssw that is sod all use to us

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    +720 hrs.

    Are ye serious lads? I know this is the FI thread, but that ridiculous.

    72-120 hours is about the limit of actualisation for zonal reversal. Anything else should be in the SSW watch thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Cork2021




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Cork2021




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,932 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Gonzo, that's your first positive post this winter! Keep believing 🙂

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Deregos.


    Are we really expecting another 'beast from the east' 2023 instalment?

    I don't have fond memories of the last one. A good friend committed suicide in London, we got trapped over there after attending the funeral and couldn't get home to our kids, who were also devastated that our dog had gone missing.

    Absolute nightmare three days.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Since the middle of December there hasn't been any eye candy till now and there are a few things lining up which could promote some sort of cold spell hopefully in our direction within the next 4 weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,132 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    No, and it will be a good few days (maybe weeks) before anything interesting appears in the forecasts, if it does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The frogs have started spawning in my garden pond. It would be better for them if there is no more sub zero nights this year



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You'd be pretty unlucky to have that sequence of events repeat itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    That is a whopper of a spread beyond day 8. We can expect to see a lot more if this as the week goes on with the SSW kicking off from midweek.


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The EC46 and CFS are on the same page for March with a blocked theme. We can see the GEM and ECM are trying to get the party started earlier via the mjo. I think that might not work out. Whatever happens I doubt we will see anything like a beast from the East, Sryan can explain, if he wishes too, the differences between now and then as to why. However, if the reversal downwells properly into the trop we may get a cold and snowy week or so during the first or second week of March.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    GFS is starting to show some candy around the day 10 mark. We are constantly on the edge of the cold but it's proper cold, so a slight nudge and we'd be golden.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Just looking at the CFS and it is particularly cold for second half of March and well into April with frequent wintry blasts from the north and east. I haven't seen a mild CFS run in well over a week at this stage. IF the CFS and ECM extended are correct Winter is going to finally get started in March.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,679 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    The major sudden stratospheric warming is set to occur tomorrow evening and Thursday should be the first full day of easterlies at 60N 10hPa (known as the central date). If we use the minimum threshold of 2 weeks for impacts, that takes us to Thursday March 2nd. This gives us an idea of the earliest we should see the impacts being felt from the SSW if we are going to see downward propagation or a tropospheric response. As it's over 2 weeks away, reliability on what models say should be non-existent because different solutions will be played with.

    A complicating factor I have not discussed is whilst there is a major warming going to take place at 10hPa, in the lower stratosphere closer to the troposphere, the polar vortex is more stubborn. If propagation occurs in the longer term, this will not matter. Why I mention it is because it might be important in determining the latitude the MJO amplification might gain hold. The MJO favours a mid-Atlantic to Greenland block with a Scandi trough towards the end of the month. However as is usual, the state of the polar vortex at the time will have a say on how far north that block gets. If it's a mid-Atlantic ridge, you can expect transient northerlies or northwesterlies. If it's more over Greenland/Iceland, you can expect more of a northeasterly tilt.

    As the CFSv2 keeps being brought up here, I might as well mention it too despite its usefulness being questionable a lot of the time. The model shows a very strong negative NAO signature for March 2023 at the moment with strong Greenland blocking. The way the Atlantic trough is aligned wouldn't be that conducive to a cold or very cold month though and in fact could find ourselves often in southerly winds. Details like that will not be firmed up on this early. The trough was much closer to us in some prior updates in an even more conducive southerly wind pattern. There will highly likely be more changes.

    There is no beast from the east in the forecast and although you cannot fully discount one happening, going to put my neck out and say there will not be one happening. This setup is very different to 2018. 2018 was a major split of the stratospheric polar vortex with daughter vortices set up in the perfect way conducive for a long fetched easterly from the heart of Siberia and the progression of the Ural high retrogressing to Greenland complimented that all along with favourable MJO amplification. In fact the retrogression in 2018 was too strong to the point that the block became west based -NAO and retrogressed to North America which allowed Storm Emma to successfully undercut ending the cold spell early although of course on the St. Patrick's Day weekend, we got a renewed easterly push. It's rare enough we get all the drivers in sync with one another and part of why, aside from our geography, these severe cold wintry spells are exceedingly rare.

    Just for the record, I don't want cold weather. I am well over it. I am on the spring train. Although if snow does occur, I will make the most of it and enjoy it.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭esposito


    I will happily take snow in March. But for April/ Easter period, no thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    If we do end up with a southerly due to the pv moving too far east in the end it will really take the biscuit. Personally I hope your spring train is derailed by two foot of snow. Although I appreciate farmers with new born lambs might not agree with me on this

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    A trend towards negative AO and NAO values now showing up for the early days of March. Not quite there yet though


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    The 12z GFS, GEM and UKMO have all shifted to a cooler setup from Tuesday next week. An area of high pressure to our south shifts further west allowing for a Polar Maritime airflow to become established over Ireland. The airmass itself is not so significant in terms of cold but the placement of the highs is notable. The GEM in particular has a nice northeasterly fetch extending over Ireland by Thursday. The shift to cold may be transient but the subtle changes in the positioning of the area of high pressure to our west are worth watching. Presently, there is little indication of heights building over Greenland but with all thats going on over the Pole, what happens up north will resolve itself over time.


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Pub run delivering 👌



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,171 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    Some colder charts now beginning to appear consistently in the GFS runs. Nothing to write home about but progress certainly...




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 12,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭Meteorite58


    Cooler, wetter with wintry showers showing up from around mid week on the ECM now for a few runs, might see a few white caps on mountains again at the end of next week, more unsettled and changeable then our recent spell of weather, bit of a shake up to the recent patterns to something new if anything, nothing too stand out at this stage although the GFS does show very cold airs coming in from the E / NE in the outer stages of FI, bit of interest there to keep an eye on.






  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I think I have more of a chance of knocking out Tyson Fury than the GFS op being right in deep FI! It really has been woeful since the upgrade



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    I think the ensembles have performed quite well but the Op run has been desperately poor since the upgrade. Tends to be the outlier (mildest or coldest) each time. I actually gave up early last month on looking at the op run and just wait for the ens to come out.

    www.x.com/wolfeeire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (410ft asl)


    The NAO is forecast to dip into negative at the end of the month.


    www.x.com/wolfeeire



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