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N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]



  • Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Limerick74

    Looks like that sign was extended or modified, which probably lead to the incorrect order of destinations.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    Minister in the Dail

    In response to an earlier question, I mentioned the Castlemartyr bypass as a specific example of the type of project we want to accelerate. The consequences for villages and towns across the country where there is that volume of through traffic are very disruptive, and that stops what we are doing on the other side, with Croí Cónaithe and other projects, where we want to get families back in the centre of villages and towns. Taking the through traffic out liberates these towns. Castlemartyr is on the list of projects that I have asked Transport Infrastructure Ireland to try to progress as fast as possible.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭mcburns07

    Spot on, there's quite a few big properties with huge gardens on the main street in Castlemartyr ripe for renovation but the appetite isn't really there because of how busy the road is all day.

    It's mind boggling that it's still only being discussed given the volumes of traffic that pass through both villages each day and how easily and cheaply they could be bypassed.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    What's even worse re: your 2nd point is that only for Deputy O'Connor kicking up about this in late 2021 it would be on the post 2030 list. Scandalous carry on

  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Gunner3629

    Is the anticipated plan to create a dual carriageway from Lakeview roundabout in Midleton all the way to Youghal - bypassing Killeagh and Castlemartyr along the way - or will it just be a single lane bypass?

    Some of the existing road is actually very wide and could possibly be converted to dual carriage, such as Killeagh to Youghal N25. Is a completely new road and route expected?

    Also, can someone remove the [suspended] tag this thread has.

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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    I believe originally the plan (back in 2008 or so) was a dual carriageway from Midleton to Youghal. There was certainly rumours of the Youghal bypass being retrofitted to DC but no plan for the Blackwater Bridge. I believe the 2008 scheme never got to the stage where something to deal with the Lakeview Roundabout was proposed.

    Realistically, at least part of this new route will have to be dual carriageway. Volumes west of Castlemartyr are c. 16k and east of Killeagh are c. 11k. This doesn't reflect the volume of traffic that routes via Mogeely or takes other alternative routes to avoid the N25, which would either return to the N25 post bypass or is worth making an effort to remove it from those local routes.

    The following questions do need answering about this scheme:

    1. Scope of the scheme: Midleton-Youghal/2 short bypasses/Castlemartyr-Killeagh only with no upgrades near Midleton or Youghal.
    2. Will the Lakeview roundabout be addressed as part of the scheme (not addressing it will make westbound traffic heavier at peak periods and cause worse congestion at Lakeview)
    3. What standard of road will be built

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    Very sensible proposal.

    An addition to your proposal may be a LILO at that Rocky Road junction with the existing N25. It might help quell some backlash to any proposals around there.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl

    Very good IMO but what about South to East? I think there might be a lot of HGV's so you might need an alternative route. But I agree with where you're going with it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    I’d be slow to add another junction so soon after the main Midleton one, and a LILO on a 2+2 would only ever help half the journeys: you could get to Cork easily but not back. But in exchange for the loss of that direct in/out, the housing off the Rocky Road would now have far better wheeled access into Midleton, via the overbridge (or probably underpass) shown than it does now, so it’s swings and roundabouts.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl

    Yes I'm not actually worried about those, I'm happy enough with what you're thinking there. I'm only thinking about (for instance) refinery movements towards Youghal.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,148 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan

    The project being looked at now is most likely SC bypasses of both towns. It was literally thrown into the mix to appease a local TD, it wasn't on the agenda at national level so I doubt it will be a mega project. This is why I would be reluctant to praise your man for what he did, most likely he has been fobbed off with an inferior solution (but he'll probably get reelected multiple times before the road is built and this becomes obvious so he probably doesn't care).

    Realistically, no junction should be provided at Lakeview RAB, just an overpass. The amount of houses which would have to be CPOed is significant, other homeowners wont be happy that on/off ramps are beide their home and it would mean the R road stays wedged with traffic despite removal of the RAB. A new junction further east and new distributor road going north and south is a much better option.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    It would require approx 17km of 2+2 from Lakeview to east of Killeagh. If you wanted to, you could start the project west of Castlemartyr and stay away from Midleton and you’re talking 10km of 2+2. Hardly a mega project.

    Anyhow, over 100km of dual carriageway was defunded last year and this put in so plenty to go around.

    SC bypasses here would be some waste of money. We stopped building half assed muck in the mid 2000s thankfully. Would love to see a list of those SC bypasses build back before then that we’ve had to re bypass since.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl

    Yeah I'd hold very little value in single-carriageway bypasses of Killeagh and Castlemartyr to be honest. I'd say it needs to be Lakeview and 2+2 the whole way realistically. I know there's not the same volume of traffic, but if Cork-Killarney is mostly 2+2, and Cork-Limerick is mostly 2+2, why bother spending money on upgrading the N25 unless it's 2+2?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl

    Yep I agree with what you're saying. It could let the town "knit" back together a bit again, by making the N25 straight through and only reintroducing the direct north-south linkages, with dedicated Sustainable modes the way KrisW1001 showed.

    I think they'd want to think carefully about whether it's an N25 or M25, and it probably needs to stay "N" for a long time yet. I think they'd need to upgrade Oatencake interchange and provide a new Midleton East interchange the way you describe. Possibly the new Midleton East distributor road you describe could be included too, but better for the County Council to do that with a development master plan shortly after the N25 work.

    That master plan could possibly even include a new train station to the East of that Distributor. The Eastern distributor could allow Dungourney traffic to bypass Midleton without using Oatencake interchange and would open up a lot of land for fairly sustainable development. It seems like the right idea, to me.

    With the recent N25 "West of Midleton" project they did try some of this by proposing a new interchange and distributor road, but it didn't include any of the other integrated plans. They forgot about non-motorway traffic and didn't really present it as an overall plan. There's low-hanging fruit there for sure.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    It will not be a single-carriageway. The current alignment outside of the towns is wide enough and has good enough geometry for a straight 2+2 retrofit, although this will require offline construction of local property access roads. Any new Single Carriageway on a National Primary road has to be designed and built with upgrade to 2+2 in mind, so the saving for a single-carriageway road would not be significant.

    There should not be a need for any complex structures either: the terrain is flat, and there are no significant routes crossing N25 - there are less than ten junctions of any kind off N25 between Castlemartyr and Killeagh. You just need one junction at Killeagh, one at Castlemartyr (preferably north side to also serve the already planned SDZ and new rail station at Mogeely), a link-road to stop Garryvoe traffic needing to use Castlemartyr en route to Cork, and that’s pretty much it.

    But, perfect being the enemy of good, I would be very happy if two stretches of what will be the eventual alignment were built to bypass Castelmartyr and Killeagh right now. Something like this:

    (I’ve included a relief road for the traffic to and from towns south of Castlemartyr, because this is really where the town’s traffic problems come from)

    Even as single-carriageway roads, these would do a huge amount to remove the bottlenecks, and when the whole project is tackled, the sections are there and ready to be widened.

    In terms of planning, people object to divided roads much more than to single carriageways, so two SC bypasses would be much easier to get installed, and if a wide enough corridor is purchased, no further CPO process would be needed again to widen a 2+2. If a road that nobody has direct access onto is being widened, it doesn’t attract the same amount of objection as one that has people’s houses alongside.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,148 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan

    Not sure why you initially state with certainty that "it will not be a single-carriageway" and then go on to show SC bypasses. I think the way this project has found itself at such a position in the list of priorities will result in bypasses like you have shown and they would have to be SC. Maybe I'm wrong and the whole thing is being looked at strategically and one backbencher has secured a €100m+ project for his constituency by threatening to resign but if that was the case, they'd all be at it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    I don’t believe the whole scheme from Midleton to Youghal will be SC. A project of that scale will be built as Type 2 DC simply because the extra cost of this kind of DC isn’t a big amount over SC once you’re doing something that size. (And besides, the whole length outside of the towns is already Type 1 Single, so what “upgrade” would a single-carriageway Midleton-Youghal scheme even provide?)

    However, I can see a situation where two much shorter, single-carriagway bypasses something like I drew get approved and built as an interim relief for the traffic problems in Castlemartyr and Killeagh. This would be perfectly acceptable to me if those two short bypasses were built along the alignment of what was going to be the full scheme eventually, and if the land take and any structures were sized for the eventual DC, such that they could be relatively cheaply upgraded to Type 2 DC as part of that full scheme.

    (There’s little sense in making such short runs DC, as this would encourage dangerous driving toward the end of the DC stretches)

    What I was saying was that while the DC would be great, and is the most likely configuration of a complete upgrade, I’d be happy if something would be done, and especially if it would be done in such a way as to not be a waste of money later. The current situation of ”Jam tomorrow, nothing today” isn’t helping anyone.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,148 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan

    Yeah I think two SC bypasses is the likely outcome from here, but it would be a long time before this stretch is revisited imo. I can't see any DC being built while the Lakeview RAB remains.

    I suspect TII were going to tackle the N25 starting from west of Midleton and working eastwards. This would be the sensible approach as the situation around Midleton would undermine any sections built east of there. If they are forced to start east of Midleton, I think level of ambition will be reduced. Running DC into the Lakeview RAB would be a disaster.

  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette

    Great article in today's Examiner about the N25 situation. A dual carriageway or motorway is really needed here but will Eamon Ryan allow it?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762

    I don't know how to call that one. We know it won't be motorway because the N25 dual carriageway is not "motorway" but we could do with a 2+2 from Midleton to Youghal of course. I can see it just being the two small bypasses... but does he interfere that much, this early on?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    Castlemartyr is the problem, not the traffic. There are two fairly manageable streams of traffic meeting at a tight junction under traffic-light control, and the low capacity of this junction and Main Street to the west backs up all the approaches.

    East of Castlemartyr things move pretty well; to the west there are delays at peak times, but generally the traffic flows fairly smoothly until you get to the roundabout at Midleton. In Castlemartyr itself, however, there are long tailbacks at all times of day and night.

    People try to dodge Castlemartyr by going East/West through Mogeely, and it’s these cars leaving/rejoining N25 that cause most of the delays in Killeagh.

    But the overall traffic here does not justify a motorway/Type 1 DC. Anywhere between Midleton and Waterford, a 2+2 would be far more than will be needed for decades.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    800k for this in 2023. Should see consultants appointed and it move towards route selection.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    I’m hoping for an end-to-end design, but one which allows the two town bypasses to be constructed first without needing to do the connecting parts. That would provide the greatest relief with the lowest cost and delay. The way the current route takes a sharp turn in Castlemartyr and the opposite sharp turn in Killeagh would allow this unless the chosen route is really far from the current N25.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    Loughaderry-Burgess is 11km. A 2+2 of this length would be ideal tbh.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    I think the final thing will be 2+2, and that would be great. But in the interests of fixing the problem quickly: have the design sorted, then building two stretches of wide single along the eventual path of the full 2+2 road would be an easy win, and could be quickly upgraded to 2+2 when needed. Once that’s done, there are better places to spend the roads budget in Co. Cork for now (N71!)

    Unfortunately, our planning law doesn’t allow us to do this kind of targeted scheduling: you either build it all, or the planning lapses on the bits you didn’t do.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    I’m looking at the map and I think they’re close enough to get done together. It wouldn’t be worth the short stretch of SC in between.

    Unfortunately, I had hoped the same for NCW and Abbeyfeale but that didn’t happen.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    It’s not just the short stretch of SC, but the access roads for the properties. There are, however, only a few of these along the stretch between the two towns, and the whole length from just west of Castlemartyr to just east of Killeagh is only 7.5 km (probably only 7km when you take the two corners out of it) anyway, so yes, it might make sense to do that.

    Actually, from the end of the dual carriageway at Midleton to the start of the Youghal bypass is 20km, so maybe breaking that into three tendered projects, with this one as the middle of those, would be a nice way to get it the whole thing done.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21

    Confirmed that TII are looking at Lakeview-Youghal bypass atm

    Before the current setup in the Department, TII seemed to be trying their best to avoid stretches of low grade road in between high grade stretches of road.

    The current length of the N25 between Lakeview and Youghal is 20km. Would be nice to get the c. 8km in total at either end done either so that it doesn't become a safety issue, but I can see it being curtained for ideological reasons.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001

    Cost and time too, not just “ideology”. Given its situation and the surrounding development, Lakeview could end up costing as much as the two town bypasses combined. And its configuration is the most likely to draw complaints at the planning process, with a couple of deep-pocketed landowners along any place where the road could be routed. There’s going to be pressure from the council to keep Lakeview as an all-movements interchange and add yet another all-movements Midleton junction to the east of the town, and something like that will involve a big land-take and we’ll be in another N28 situation before you know it.

    But I agree that it should be included in the design, but doing that is going to condemn the residents of Castlemartyr to an extra year of traffic as the Midleton end gets tangled up in judicial review nonsense.. I’m surprised you’re still blaming the Green Party for the slow pace of progress, when in truth the planning system is the greatest source of delay.

    Incidentally, Castlemartyr needs a relief road in addition to this bypass, but that’s something that we’ll have to rely on the “Town Centres First” programme to deliver, I think.