N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

Chris_5339762

Lakeview should be a flyover only with other movements closed, and a junction built to the east of Midleton with a link road around to the road to Aghada. I think that's the only way it'll all physically fit - and it'll get traffic OFF Lakeview too.

Not looking forward to the complaints though.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273756#Comment_120273756

I'll leave Lakeview out, but while I understand your premise, IMO this should continue to the Youghal bypass on the eastern end if at all possible. Having (presumably) 2 grade separated stretches of road separated by a low grade wide single carraigeway is not ideal. We already see the issues at Burgess. The only reason it would have to be curtailed is because of anti-non bypass road dogma in the Department.

Re: cost and time. Mallow and Slane are both in line for bypasses in the NDP. Both are c. 4km. Both started planning in 2016 and neither have gone in for planning permission yet. That's 7 years later. The 16km Virginia bypass for example is just as far ahead as those 2. Cost and time don't make a difference here, especailly when we're talking about no more than a 5km stretch tacked on at the end.

Lakeview is another debate altogether. I agree that if it's included in this it will delay it, fully agree with you on that. But if it's not included in this it'll make the jams there much worse.

I can't really reply to your comment about the Green Party until we know for sure what's happening here.

hans aus dtschl

Yeah I think Lakeview just needs to be dealt with. Because any work near Midleton that doesn't deal with Lakeview is going to make any Lakeview upgrade far more difficult and the intervening period far more painful.

Maybe two projects simultaneously: would that be too difficult to achieve? One to effectively move Lakeview junction East and another to deal with the N25 proper? Lakeview stands on its own two feet as a project because it splits the town in two at this stage.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274783#Comment_120274783

Perhaps Carrigtwohill-Loughaderry and Loughaderry-Youghal or so?

I know you're not a major fan of Carrigtwohill-Midleton but if Lakeview-Youghal is being done it has to be tidied up to a certain extent. The onramp at Oatencake westbound is pathetic to say the least.

FGR

I for one am glad that, after 17 years, I no longer have to drive this horrific road.

Waterford City to Youghal is manageable compared to the stretch that is Youghal to the west of Lakeview. Something really needs to be done but I can't see it happening for another 17 years.

Why the entire system cannot be accelerated is beyond me. Is it simply the fact that our judiciary is too small and still based on practises from the 1920s that keeps all progress back when it comes to planning issues? Could we appoint a hell of a lot more judges to the benches to get things moving?

If only we had a few more years to have let Transport21 do its thing. We'd have had that motorway Atlantic Corridor by now..

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277398#Comment_120277398

The timeline for this project has absolutely nothing to do with judges.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274842#Comment_120274842

Yes Carrigtohill to Loughaderra/Ballintotis would make perfect sense to me.

My problem with the previous scheme was that it didn't deal with much other than Oatencake, and Oatencake itself is only an issue because of Council antics. They allowed extensive development on the relief road and even built a school right on the junction in the last few years! So I don't see why TII should bankroll another opportunity for them to create more of the same a few km further West.

So a new "interchange to empty fields" at Adamstown was the straw that broke the camel's back for me! Complete with convenient "new scenic S-shaped road" through the fields. If they want to develop a new town with the population of Westport on a national road It's about time they put in a master plan for it. And not pretend it's all an effort to make people on the road safer, when they themselves have consistently undermined that safety. That project was almost like some kind of gaslighting to me!

Gunner3629

With the Midleton to Mogeely road closed at the moment due to road works, traffic through Castlemartyr is worse than ever. Goes to show how many cars are avoiding the village every morning and evening and finding alternative routes.

Traffic heading east is back to Loughaderra lake now at peak hours. Hopefully someone with some sway will be sitting in traffic and finally realise how bad it actually is for commuters.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903080#Comment_120903080

James O'Connor TD keeps raising this issue whenever he can but gets met with the usual stonewalling. There is so much red tape and bullshit around getting a road into planning now.

TII now estimate 15 years for a project from cradle to grave. That means 2037 for this project.

mcburns07

Surely a bypass for Castlemartyr could happen a lot faster than that. I live just beyond the village and traffic really is an absolute disaster for the majority of the day regardless of day of the week.

Gunner3629

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903226#Comment_120903226

Exactly, it doesn't have to even be a N25 upgrade, it can simply be a bypass/relief road around the town. A bypass that would probably be even shorter than the current route.

They don't want to invest in rail to Youghal from Cork (which is another discussion entirely) but atleast make the road network fit for purpose.

We can't blame James O'Connor, he's doing his best. But with so many Cork TD's in the government you'd think something can be done.

Risoc

Had a look.

It would be shorter than the current route alright. A road of about 2km would shortcut from one end of the town to the other, bisecting the Mogeely Road would end up looking like a straight line. You'd only have an L-shaped town then on the outside, shaped more like a bypass than the road itself.

marno21

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2023-10-05/24/#pq_24

Consultants to be appointed for route selection, planning & design by year end

By then we'll have learned what the scope of this project will be (half arsed relief roads, proper bypasses or a full blown dual carriageway)

65535

With a centralised government in 'Leinster' House - it is concentrating on Leinster.

Anything outside of the East Coast is not prioritised - if it were then we would have at least a motorway between the 2 largest cities outside of the east coast - that is Cork & Limerick and why not at this stage a motorway between Cork and Waterford ?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204065#Comment_121204065

Because traffic levels don't justify a motorway between Cork and Waterford. There is no conspiracy here.

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204173#Comment_121204173

If a motorway can be justified between Galway and Tuam then one between the three largest cities outside of Dublin can be justified - no one mentions conspiracy - Dublin looks after Dublin - examine a map and see where the motorways go and come from.

I've even heard it in the past - how come there are so many Cork registered cars on the M7.....

KrisW1001

Tuam is the tail end of a planned motoway all the way from Cork.. it's not built because of traffic between Galway and Tuam. The Southern bit of that is going to be built.

There's no justification at all for motorway on any part of N25 between Midleton and Waterford. I drive that road all the time, it doesn't need more capacity, just a couple of bottlenecks to be removed..

Cork has the second highest population of any county in the state, so guess what: there are lots of cars registered there. Whatever you're reading into that, you're going to have to explain it a bit better, because I can't see a point there...

Chris_5339762

Agreed with lack of justification, but at the same time Cork to Rosslare should be 2+2 throughout as a strategic route. Home to Rosslare is 189km and take 2h30m with no traffic. Thats silly.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205383#Comment_121205383

With the N/M20, there will be dual carriageway between the three largest cities outside of Dublin, not sure what point you are trying to make what that has to do with motorway between Cork and Waterford.

And your example of motorway between Galway and Tuam goes against your Dublin looks after Dublin thing. Bizarre post.

Norteño

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121207526#Comment_121207526

I've no idea what he's going on about.

I think he may just be clearing a blockage.

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121207526#Comment_121207526

The only bizarre thing here is the justificatin of building a motorway between Galway and Tuam and not having even a dual carrigeway between Cork/Limerick/Waterford - that's bizarre - but then the politicians who are/were from that area speak the loudest.

You tried to justify not building a motorway due to lack of traffic - how much traffic goes between Galway and Tuam - ?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121210076#Comment_121210076

I certainly didn't try to justify the motorway between Galway and Tuam or the lack of dual carrigeway between Cork and Limerick. I was pointing out facts to you, including that traffic levels don't justify a motorway between Cork and Waterford.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121210076#Comment_121210076

They didn't build a motorway between Galway and Tuam, they continued the M18 from Gort and placed a junction with the M6 at the point where they crossed.

The M20 would be built and open if the economy hadn't crashed. That's not down to Dublin centric politicians.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121210076#Comment_121210076

We don't need to guess about traffic volumes. TII provides all the data:

The M17 south of Tuam averages 11,533 vehicles per weekday: https://trafficdata.tii.ie/sitedashboard.asp?sgid=XZOA8M4LR27P0HAO3_SRSB&spid=7E5BFBC48AE5

The N25 east of Kilmacthomas averages 11,381 vehicles per weekday: https://trafficdata.tii.ie/sitedashboard.asp?sgid=XZOA8M4LR27P0HAO3_SRSB&spid=7B3659C8D520

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213412#Comment_121213412

East of Midleton on the N25 its 16,700 per weekday. Higher than on any stretch of the Gort to Tuam motorway. Even taking your numbers, I'm not sure its a good argument against the dualing of the N25 to Youghal to say that it currently has almost identical traffic volumes as a current motorway.

Great website by the way, I've never seen it before, the numbers there highlight how utterly mad it would be to build the M24 ahead of the M20.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232388#Comment_121232388

I wasn’t expressing a view either way. I was just sharing the data to avoid the guesswork. Glad you find it useful.

marno21

Mr Hegarty also asked where a major upgrade of the Midleton to Youghal road currently stands. He said it would make more sense and would be cheaper in the long run if it wasn’t upgraded in its entirety, in one go, and instead, bypasses are built in the interim in Castlemartyr and Killeagh.

Mr Healy wasn't confident about money being found any time soon for a whole upgrade of the N25 between Midleton and Youghal, adding that “the minister (Ryan) seems reluctant to fund projects of that scale”. 

Astonishing that a multi million euro project may have to be delivered sub optimally at the whims one individual.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519001#Comment_121519001

I'm not sure it is, Marno. Where you've quoted this from, they also say that Ryan torpedoed the previous N25 Western upgrade plan, but I had thought TII and NTA themselevs had killed that one. What I'm saying is that I realise you're just quoting from the paper, but I don't think the paper is fully accurate here.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521352#Comment_121521352

Are you referring to Carrigtwohill-Midleton as the Western upgrade? That's currently frozen as no funding was provided in 2022 or 2023. It's not clear if no funding was provided because TII are prioritising using limited funding for more pressing projects or whether it wasn't funded because of the Minister's personal preferences.

My reading of the above article is that the options selection process for the Midleton-Youghal scheme will be based on what's likely to get funded in light of the Minister's personal preferences rather than the most cost effective solution to the problem at hand taking into account the deficiencies of the existing road, traffic volumes, the nature of the N25 corridor, and safety considerations.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519001#Comment_121519001

Well Midleton to Youghal only became a live project at the whims one individual - a FF TD and MM can't afford any resignations. The position prior to that was for nothing to be done on this route for several years.