N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121746514#Comment_121746514

TII’s AADT range for Type 2 is 11600-20000. For 2023, the AADT was 16460 between Midleton and Castlemartyr, and it was 11614 between Killeagh and Youghal. So Type 2 is definitely justifiable all the way to Youghal, though only barely as you get closer to Youghal.

KrisW1001

The 19,000 figure was pulled out of someone's orifice, I'm afraid.

Castlemartyr to Midleton is not just a commuter road, but it is mostly a commuter road. I regularly drive N25 Cork-Waterford against the commuting flow and it's very clear where the traffic is joining and leaving. Castlemartyr has a major traffic gain due to cars from the Garryvoe road.. A bypass (which will go to the north) won't actually solve this without also including a relief road south of Castlemartyr itself.

Once you're east of Castlemartyr, traffic drops dramatically; by east of Youghal there's almost none. The problems at Killeagh are mainly knock-on effects of people trying to avoid Castlemartyr by going through Mogeely, but Killeagh is small enough that any bypass would be short.

@cantalach, Castemartyr to Youghal is only scraping the lower bounds for Type 2 DC, which is why I said "just about" justified.

Honestly, a Type 1 single would suffice as a Killeagh bypass. I'm well aware of how unpopular the idea of single carriageways are around here, but I know this road very well, and capacity is not the problem at Killeagh. DC would be the best option at Castemartyr, but the idea of a motorway (Type 1 Dual) anywhere here is just not realistic. If there was money for such a build, it would be better spent elsewhere on the network.

omicron

The AADT figure for Castlemartyr to Midleton is taken east of the two mile inn, where a significant amount of traffic has left the n25 to rat run through Mogeely, I would imagine the figure would be significantly higher if it was taken to the west of this junction.

Frostybrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751721#Comment_121751721

This is probably where the 19000 figure is coming from, and a better reflection of what is happening in reality. A type 2 dual carriageway will be a huge waste of money on this section, as it will be obsolete by the time it is built; and lead to many fatal accidents.

"Castlemartyr to Midleton is not just a commuter road, but it is mostly a commuter road."

Almost all of our motorways are mostly commuter roads. In fact, this one would be comparatively less so. You're still ignoring the strategic aspect, which is of far greater national developmental importance than many of the other motorways that have been completed, and almost all other currently proposed. Suggesting a single carriageway would suffice for a bypass of Killeagh, is borderline trolling, though I suspect your opinion is overly influenced by ideology rather than developmental reality.

idi na khuy hai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751992#Comment_121751992

I'm glad someone said it 😂

KrisW1001

“Where the 19000 figure is coming from” is still someone’s imagination. The N25 dual carriagway west of Midleton has an AADT figure of 18,500. A figure of 19,000 AADT at the other, far less populous side of the town before the major traffic sources of Midleton and Cloyne/Whitegate have been added just cannot be correct. Find reputable traffic-count data and I’ll believe it, but until then, it’s just someone exaggerating the facts to try an make a weak case stand up (and, in the process, undermining the genuine case).

I am really not trolling, and I don’t have an ideology except that I want the road network upgraded to a proper, safe and efficient standard. What I don’t have is a fetish for “Motorway” signs. In my view, money wasted on overspecified projects just so people can see blue lines on a map is money that can’t be used to straighten and improve deadly sections of the secondary road network.

Killeagh is at the upper end of a type 1 SC right now, but if you know this road, you know the reasons why this creates stop-start delays: the traffic lights, the right turn for rat-runners avoiding Castlemartyr, and a couple of local junctions on the Cork side. The delays are always worse on the eastern approach than the western, which makes it clear that this isn’t a road-capacity problem.

I’d prefer a Type 2 to continue to the east of Killeagh, but if the justification for Type 2 doesn’t go further than Castlemartyr, then Killeagh will still need a short bypass. The greatest benefit here is from simply taking the village main street off the N25, and at current traffic levels, a Type 1 Single will do that - and I did also say that it should be designed with terminal junctions that allow it to be easily upgraded to 2+2 later. Make the terminal junction grade separated, have the land-take and bridge spans wide enough for conversion to 2+2 and the route is future-proofed, but what’s more important is that the problems are fixed earlier than if you try to push an unnecessary “motorway” through a rural area.

Pete_Cavan

Talk of motorway is pointless as long as the Lakeview RAB remains in place and the road between west of Midleton is a mess. Having the existing level of traffic passing the Lakeview RAB and travelling further west is unsatisfactory, nevermind attracting additional traffic to do so. I have long assumed that TII's reluctance to initiate a project east of Midleton is because they know that it will solve some problems but will add to problems elsewhere and make addressing Lakeview even more difficult.

The existence of motorway elsewhere is not relevant to the cross-section for another unrelated road. That applies doubly so when you look at the state of the western part of the N25, which carries even more traffic. Say there's a motorway somewhere else isn't justification for building motorway east of Midleton. Also pushing for motorway is tantamount to saying nothing should be done here for the next 20 years.

As I've said before, a P&R east of Midleton should be part of the solution. That would releave the Lakeview RAB somewhat and really improve the case for Castlemartyr + Killeagh bypasses from an economic and environmental pov.

Leatra

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the 19,000 figure as quoted is wrong, it’s just doing a bit of generous lifting. The line was that there are “more than 19,000 vehicles per day travelling through Castlemartyr on busy days,” and given that in July 2023 and July and August 2021 the monthly average traffic was over 18,000 a day I’m sure there are indeed some days that see over 19,000. Whether we should use bank holiday traffic to the seaside as our benchmark, of course, is a different matter entirely.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739008#Comment_121739008

Deliberately selects the quietest section of M9 for a bit of exaggeration and anti south east bashing at the same time- the blessed M8 figures are very similar but of course our cork based politician wouldn’t dare point that out

Chris_5339762

Upgrade Midleton - Youghal to 2+2, motorway, whatever you want (I'd support either), but the pinch point that will be hardest to fix is the Lakeview Roundabout at Midleton. And thats not that easy to fix due to surrounding houses and other stuff.

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754601#Comment_121754601

The reality is that the M9 was never really justifiable as a motorway on traffic counts but was more that when the Dublin > regional city inter-urbans were being planned and built, it would have been political dynamite not to include Waterford on that list because it was always referened as a city historically. It also was advantageous that this could include Kilkenny as well on the route.

KrisW1001

N9 was certainly over-built (I am from Waterford, before anyone starts), but at the time there wasn't a lower capacity inter-urban dual carriageway design that could be applied, and the requirement was that the cities all be linked to Dublin by dual carriageways at a minimum. I'm happy with what was done, but I know it was overkill.

If the Type 2 DC was in the manual back then, I think it would have been used south of Carlow.. it's not that Waterford is a "lesser" destination than the other cities, more that Waterford-Dublin can be a choice between N9 or N25-N11 depending on where you're going, and where you're starting from. No other city's hinterland has two good routes to the capital like this, and that other option of N11 does affect traffic volumes on M9.

marno21

Scope of this project. Not sure if this was published here before.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769139#Comment_121769139

Slightly disappointing it doesn't cover Ballinacorra and Dungourney, seems like it wouldn't have been much more effort to include them.

Interesting to see them come so far west of Midleton though. The council will get their Milebush suburban sprawl come hell or high water :D !

Chris_5339762

Scope is good, apart from the fact that it doesn't include a new Youghal bridge. There is no alternative bridge right up to the N24. No good one anyway.

I can quite imagine why it is not included for cost reasons though.

markodaly

To be honest, if some new route bypasses both Killeagh and Castlemartyer, that would suffice. The rest of it isn't too bad given Youghal is already bypassed. Would open up East Cork a lot though.

mcburns07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770005#Comment_121770005

What were you hoping to see for Ballinacurra / Dungourney? From the area and was surprised to see you mention Dungourney in particular.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776422#Comment_121776422

I'd like them to talk about a connection from the R627 Dungourney road directly onto the N25 instead of going through Midleton town itself or via the small back-roads. I basically wanted them to bolster the case for a proper Midleton North Distributor, during their corridor analysis.

With Ballinacurra, I believe they are avoiding analysis of the R629 which is reasonably heavily trafficked, and again would be nice if they could bolster the case for a major Midleton East interchange (instead of Lakeview).

In "crayons" something like the attached overall. But they won't focus on that, and it's understandable.

MidletonEast.PNG

KrisW1001

Nice to see Lakeview roundabout brought into the study area of this project... addressing Castlemartyr won't do a lot of good unless Lakeview is also tackled.

If the final thing covers that area, this will be a much more beneficial scheme to the region than Midleton-Glounthaune.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776525#Comment_121776525

Really it should go the east side of the Lakeview roundabout and be a slip road instead of another roundabout.

The roundabouts don't work in the mornings with heavy traffic, where one free-flowing entrance can monopolize the movement of everyone else.

You could see this before they built the slip at Lakeview coming up from Saleen. The traffic coming from Castlemartyr prevented the Saleen traffic moving.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776566#Comment_121776566

Oh totally agreed, I just put in a circle roughly where I felt a new interchange could be.

I just think we need rid of Lakeview now, that's my biggest desire there. My secondary motivation is getting Dungourney traffic out of Midleton and third motivation is getting Cloyne traffic out of Ballinacurra.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776583#Comment_121776583

All fantastic suggestions.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776566#Comment_121776566

I'd be amazed if there is a proposal to remove the Lakeview RAB and absolutely astounded if it survices the outcry from locals.

This is why I think they should focus on a link road to the east of Midleton, as drawn above, and push as many commuters as possible to the train. I can't see a full GSJ ever being built there, many some movements accommodated but not all.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777681#Comment_121777681

Thats what worries me. I fear Lakeview will stay. Only think you could do is sever the N/S link and move the whole junction to the east, negating the need for a bridge there at all.

KrisW1001

Making Lakeview limited access, would help a lot, and a full movement junction can go further east.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777697#Comment_121777697

Well, the best chance of removing the Lakeview RAB is if an alternative junction and link roads north and south are provided further east first, so that should be the priority.

niloc1951

I'm touring in France/Spain/Portugal at the moment and have come across a every simple solution to situations like the N25 through the Lakeview Roundabout.

Lane 2 signed for straight ahead only with Lane 1 signed for all other routes.

Lane 2 then taken over the junction/roundabout on a prefabricated overpass which can be either constructed from steel or concrete sections.

For the Lakeview Roundabout only a short section of dual carriageway would be need to the east of the roundabout to facilitate the separation of through traffic from traffic for the Midleton-Ballinacurra areas

Job done at an economical cost and with a short timescale.

Gunner3629

This week, Fianna Fáil candidate James O'Connor has announced that the bypass project for a notorious section of the N25 - stretching from Midleton to Youghal - has reached a major milestone in order to make the road safer.

He confirmed that the County Council's work on the first phase of the bypass is complete and that it will now move to tender, where engineering design consultants will be appointed.

Source: Cork Beo

FGR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122903316#Comment_122903316

So is this now a full on bypass of Castlemartyr and Killeagh? I originally thought this was a small s2 to get past Castlemartyr but a proper approach to upgrading the N25 is definitely a smarter move.