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Bray Air Show - DART Doors forced open following delays and discomfort.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk

    MOD: Moving @jeffk post to the right thread:

    "Well the old too good to be true saying came true

    Got out to Bray fairly ok

    Coming back (take away the "organizers/Irish Rail) went pear shaped

    7 or so on a dart

    Got into conolly just after 8 then google decides to tell us platform 2, a worker seen us lost then says no platorm 7 where we where

    55 minutes to next train, so 920 or so onto the next train

    Got into Clonsila 950, looked up google again with platfrom being wrong and next train 2210, which comes and goes, ring SOS thing, wrong platform and next train 2250

    So it took us as good as 4 hours too get home"

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,843 ✭✭✭✭Furze99

    Incompetence in Irish Rail management - what's new?

    But at least there is public transport in Dublin for people to moan about.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,661 ✭✭✭zg3409

    Apologies on landsdowne road, a quick Google shows it was closed for one match as a trial.

    There is a big bus presence right in front of Bray dart station so lots of busses go this way.

    I expect the whole seafront was full of people so root cause of jam may not really have been railway crossing but crowds on far side of railway crossing causing backlog all the way back to the platform. Keeping barriers down with good signage for pedestrians to go elsewhere may work, the root cause I think is uncontrolled unticketed event (even free tickets) and uncontrolled numbers on dart, followed by a trigger event that then triggers more delays. It sound like 2 dart trains southbound were "evacuated" between shankhill and bray. Was that it? It's normally chaos all day on the dart on airshow day anyway.

    Below photos is a good few hundred metres north of Bray station and it's at a bridge over the river so hard to keep away from the tracks. It's probably hard to hop over a fence to get away from the track so passengers are forced to walk for 10 minutes.

    Reports clothes removed from babies due to heat in carriages

    I think last photo might be fake. The red arrows were practicing on Saturday but we're weather grounded on Sunday.

  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    I'd hardly call it strange behavior but I think it needs to be looked at in context. I, walking a scarcely used cross country single track branch line in a rural location of a sunday afternoon is a very different kettle of fish to walking along a busy double tracked DART line in the Dublin suburbs. The former is benign and the I would admit is idiotic and pretty dangerous.

    It is reasonable to fear that someone on the tracks in Dublin is a strung out suicidal junkie about to top themselves or fall under the train wheels as a result of a drug and drink induced stupor. It is not reasonable to assume that someone walking a branch line on its last legs in a rural location with a dog on a lead is going to voluntarily inject themselves into the train's undercarriage.

    Anyhow, regardless of opinions contrary to mine, the threat of Gardai, and the fine print of the IE rule book, I have been walking that line on occasion for the last 25 years or so and I will continue to do so for the next 25, nomatter what anyone thinks.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy

    Yeah the buses go down to the DART station but they don't cross the LC and go down the seafront. The 145 was terminating on Quinnsborough Road instead of Ballywaltrim I'm not sure why as the roads were not closed as the 45a, 84 and 184 were unaffected.

    The airshow has run fine in previous years without the need for tickets as does the St. Patrick's day parade.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭pnott

    There was a technical issue on a train earlier in the day. That caused a knock on effect where trains were running too close together and leaving large gaps between services. This combined with a possibly larger than expected crowd lead to very large crowds accumulating at stations. Irish rail admitted that 10 stations were unstaffed yesterday. Staff should have been deployed to all stations and should have limited the numbers allowed in stations to prevent trains and stations becoming dangerously overcrowded. The airshow started at around 14:45 around the time the dart was stopped just outside Bray. Possibly the frustration at the delays caused by a technical fault, the overcrowding, the heat and the fear of missing out on the action caused passengers to open the doors. That of course resulted in the dart behind near Shankill being stopped. What should have been a manageable issue earlier in the day was allowed to snowball out of control. Thank god no one was seriously injured or worse.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,017 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭Economics101

    The regular weekday timetable has trains between Bray and Dublin every 10 minutes. If all trains in the couple of hours prior to the air show were 8-carriage this would have given a capacity of at least 5,000 per hour. If fact I think that the maximum capacity of an 8-car DART is over 1,000. What was the interval between trains last Sunday? Was the problem due to the length of time it took to disembark a full train and clear the platform of people for the next arrival?

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,898 ✭✭✭trellheim

    Remember there was an All-Ireland on as well. Although at another place on the line it had to be slowing things down as well.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    Why didn't they close bray dart station

    Then run buses to the next station either direction

    4 buses, 1 being loaded while the other is being unloaded and repeat

    No tickets were checked/tapped getting on the trains as in a rush to get people moving.

    So if they ran buses then people had to tap/check tickets they wouldn't have lost that money (and could use some to cover driver's etc for say two hours)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭SeeMoreBut

    Any photos on the train?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭bikeman1

    That would not even come close to the capacity needed.

    Each completely rammed 8 car train carries at least 1,200 pax. A double decker bus holds approximately 80 safely. This would mean for every DART pulling in, you would need 15 buses lined up ready to go. The DARTs were running about 10 minutes apart at the peak on Sunday. Allowing for loading up, drive, unload and back, you would need about 5 batches of these buses to cover the amount of trains arriving. That would be 75 buses.

    As you can see, that would be completely un workable. DB and GAI can't even come close to covering their own schedules at the moment, never mind provide one extra bus.

    Heavy rail is the solution for an event like Bray it can lift large numbers away more than any bus or certainly car can. But it has to be managed effectively, which it wasn't on Sunday. Hopefully Irish Rail have learned from this and will hire in stewards to assist with the crowd control and put in a an effectively management plan around the level crossing (routing pedestrians away from that area) and running 8 car DARTs throughout along with supplementary specials with 29s and clear communication to passengers on board.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    Just throwing out idea, but when you say that it does make sense.

    I dont know what darts where running on ten minutes, maybe the bray etc, but I was left waiting a hour for the Maynooth one to go to clonsila, then missed one in clonsila and had to wait a hour for next one (525 left event to get home to blanch at 1110 or so, ended up going back to the pier to go toilet and then got chipper as knew be waiting, better than two hours in a queue in that heat)

    I know the carparking etc was madness, but I am sure it wouldnt have taken me 6 hours to get home if I drove (id say the all ireland supports got home quicker)

    I can see the simple solution of knocking the show on the head or maybe irish rail etc will just block it (if you have to put in for a licence to hold the event and people can object) as how many people got the dart from Bay for free to just get the crowd moving

    I think a North/Southside airshow is the way to go or even have a few regional ones, funny enough the Rush one came up on my facebook timeline

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,759 ✭✭✭cython

    I dont know what darts where running on ten minutes, maybe the bray etc, but I was left waiting a hour for the Maynooth one to go to clonsila, then missed one in clonsila and had to wait a hour for next one (525 left event to get home to blanch at 1110 or so, ended up going back to the pier to go toilet and then got chipper as knew be waiting, better than two hours in a queue in that heat)

    At the risk of seeming to be pedantic, the Maynooth line is obviously not (yet, at least) a DART service, and is a very poor relation of the DART service in terms of frequency at the weekends in particular as a result. There may have been extra services on that line for the All Ireland, but with the focus they'd have had on clearing Drumcondra, I don't think anyone travelling from further east would have benefited from it, and by the sounds of it normal schedule would have resumed by the time you got as far as Connolly.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    I thought Dart is green trains, the Maynooth train is green (so i assumed dart), I know the one from Clonsila to M3 Parkway is silver so is different

    This was nine at night (just under four hours after the show "finished" , another large crowd ready to be squashed into a train in hope of getting home

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭bikeman1

    On a Sunday evening, the Maynooth line only has an hourly service; 19:17, 20:17, 21:17, 22:17 and 23:27 ex Connolly.

    In Bray, I joined the queue at 18:20, one DART loaded up and departed. We made the next one which departed at 18:45 from Bray (with a seat). That was in Connolly at 19:40. If I was travelling to Clonsilla, the next train would be the 20:17 and in Clonsilla at 20:43. That would have been 2 hours 20 minutes to do that journey on Sunday. Not sure what you were doing til 23:10 to get to Blanch?

    Leap card allows a free transfer to a bus. So you could have alighted at Tara St. and headed for a 39 to Blanch?

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer

    Why were you using Google rather than the actual platform displays in the stations to see where trains were going from?

    Google doesn’t store that kind of information.

    It sounds like you missed two trains (one in Connolly and one in Clonsilla) by not looking at the actual displays in the stations which really isn’t the railway company’s fault?

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    I wrongly decided to park the car at M3 parkway (not navan road parkway as drive more and no free parking) to use public transport with the "help" of google maps to go and come back from Bray

    Where I live in Blanch its 38/38a or walk the centre/village and get a 39 etc, no dart or luas near us and i HATE the bus (late if it shows up in the first place)

    I left the pier just as red arrows was a no show, 520 or so seen the crowds so gave up and came back and got onto a train around 720-730

    Got into connolly around 820 and missed a train and had to wait around 920

    Then got to Clonsila around 950, google said the wrong platfrom and time and eventually got on a train at 1050

    Drove out of out of M3 parkway at around 1110

    So 2 hours queueing or having a chipper or whatever and then another two or less waiting on tains so if i left the show at 7ish and the stars alined and got 3 trains in a row with a resoanal gap, then yes would have been 2/2.30 hours or so travel time

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk



    730 dart to stand all the way in

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    I used both

    Connolly as I got of the bray train, it was 55 minutes on the board for maynooth train

    Clonsila i got in at 950 the same time as the train left, then no time on the board and rang SOS and he said the time and the right platfrom (clonsila is two platforms then its like the 3rd one is cut into the side of one of them as the train stops there)

    So its not like i was in the stations and missed a train by my own fault, if was in clonsila earlier then yes that would have been my fault

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  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady

    It is a crap event anyway. All that hassle to see a few distant loop-the-loops miles away in the sky. No loss if it is knocked on the head.

    Even the shannon air show a few years ago was crap. No opportunity to get up close and see the planes on the ground.

    Totally over rated and hyped up. And as usual, ,big events draw troublemakers like

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer

    Ok - in your earlier post you said you’d arrived into Connolly “just after 8” - hence I was struggling to see how you missed the 20:20 service to Maynooth.

    But are you saying that the connecting train for M3 Parkway left the bay platform at Clonsilla before passengers could cross the footbridge from the train from Connolly?

    That sounds really crazy if true.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    Well then I just missed both trains so

    I got into clonsila at 950 , went to the platform Google said to wait for the 1010 train as Google said

    Maybe if I knew was at 950 and right platform and ran down I MIGHT gave made it

    I think there was us and one other person, most had gotten off before clonsila (more sense)

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer

    But there is no 22:10 train from Clonsilla to anywhere on Sundays, so I don’t know where you’re getting that information from.

    You keep saying “Google” but I’ve no idea what you were looking at?

    If you had looked at the Irish Rail website and timetable it shows that there’s a connection to M3 Parkway due to leave at 21:48 - now it is supposed to wait for the train from Connolly as it’s only purpose is to provide a connection.

    There is a train due to leave M3 Parkway for Clonsilla at 22:10 - maybe you checked the wrong place?

    For future reference, I can only suggest you bookmark the Maynooth line timetable pdf below - unfortunately it sounds like you were looking at the wrong place for accurate info.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    Do you work for Irish rail? I'm getting that vibe

    Google maps is what I used

    Look we can go round and round but what happened was a joke, end of.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer

    I’ve nothing to do with them - I’m just a public transport user, but perhaps a more frequent one than yourself by the sounds of things.

    I was merely puzzled how you managed to miss two trains.

    Unfortunately there is only an hourly frequency on the Maynooth line in the evenings on Sundays so unless you time it right, you can be stuck.

    But the reason I asked if the M3 train left without sufficient time for you to get across the footbridge at Clonsilla is that it simply shouldn’t - that’s supposed to be a guaranteed connection.

    I was just trying to be helpful with the timetable link. It’s always worth checking in advance.

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd

    You used Google, Google was wrong. As the other poster mentioned there's no 22.10 train going in your direction.

    Best off using either the IR timetable or better still go onto the journey planner or the live station board on the website which tells you what platform your service goes from as the m3 parkway is a connection service.

    IR can be blamed for alot on Sunday but you can't blame them for you using a service (google maps) that doesn't always contain up to date timetables, platform information etc so I don't see how you can call it a joke

    I can see where the other poster is coming from because you're timings etc didn't seem to add up but the use of Google maps could explain it.

    Journey planner has all the platforms listed. For example the consilla service you were probably on, correct platforms listed

    Moral of the story, don't rely on Google maps for the correct transport information. Always check IR for the correct times and platform.

    Post edited by stephenjmcd on

  • Registered Users Posts: 34,524 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato

    Luas trams have opening windows. None have a/c as far as I know and it wouldn't really make sense for them to.

    Post edited by Paul on

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭jeffk

    Ok then what's the go to app for public transport etc planning?

    I know there's an official app with crap rating on the play store

    When I was in Birmingham a hotel worker suggested Moovit

    I will admit when I'm wrong but I've planned many a day out, holidays etc and find hard to take what happened in my own city as my own fault so that's why defensive

    Somewhat bad luck landing twice to miss trains, but after that the system is all wrong, imagine landing here as a tourist with no English

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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,082 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi