Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

How does this scientific evidence explain the fact that double and triple vaccinated people are coming down with covid?

That’s what you call scientific evidence? That sounds like science from RTE imo. May, helps, some - all those wishy-washy words… classic at this point.

Funny, i was about to ask you the same question but I think I know what reality you are living in.

And that is a concrete argument. What is the period post injection that this quoted figure of 70% is given for? Would it be as I said before 8-10 weeks by any chance, after which a next booster is required to maintain that level?

Thus the fact that Ireland is 90% vaccinated is not very relevant any more. Ireland was 90% vaccinated and at that time it may or may not have mattered.

I don’t see how this answers my question, which in relation to a previous paper that you referenced to was: “What is the period post injection that this quoted figure of 70% is given for?”. Simple question - simple answer. it should not be too difficult for you. The answer is the paper you brought up yourself.

As for the last quote that you posted, I read papers a while back that stated that there was no evidence that vaccinating those who had an infection gives any immunity gains and that immunity that was obtained through the infection gives the strongest and longest lasting protection. May be worth checking where the funding is coming from, as that may have an impact on the findings.

The bottom line is that efficacy of mRNA vaccines wanes very quickly, and that they don’t protect from infection. It is astonishing to see a product that is so bad and yet making so much profit. In other circumstances or in different industries this would not have been possible. If a flatscreen TV was comparably bad, we would be sending it for a new backlight every 3 months. Otherwise it sort of works but the picture is not as bright as it once was.

But then again confirmation bias has no limits and those who lapped up the vaccine narrative and vaccinated themselves up to the gills do not critically look into and question their own choices. It has been over 2 years and nothing has changed and nothing will. I get that.

Then don't mention scientific evidence when you express your opinion that is based on what you call a common sense.

How many versions of science are in your reality?

Not sure who that is directed at, 1 for me anyway

Removed in Ireland yes but ‘show me your papers’ still very much in operation in Europe.

I know someone who only about two weeks ago were forced to wear a mask and then had their temperature taken on arrival in Spain.

NOT 2020 but two weeks ago!

I found two recent studies (June and July 2022) that have been done by the same team on a Qatari cohort and thus can serve as a good comparison imo. They compare the protection against covid provided by the mRNA vaccines with protection from reinfection provided by a natural infection.

First, the “Duration of mRNA vaccine protection against SARS-CoV-2 Omicron BA.1 and BA.2 subvariants in Qatar” (published) Chemaitelly et al. concluded that effectiveness of a 2-dose Pfizer vaccine against symptomatic omicron BA.1 and [BA.2] is 46.6% and [51.7 %] in a period of 1-3 months, 8.8% and [12.4%] at 4-6 months, and -17.8% and [-12.1%] (negative!?) at 7 months and more after injection. A 3rd dose boosts the effectiveness up to 59.9% and [43.7%] in a first month after injection, but again this quickly wanes away. Moderna vaccine offers a similar level of protection with similar effectiveness patterns. Effectiveness against COVID-19 hospitalization and death was 70–80% after the second dose and >90% after the booster dose. The “mRNA vaccines provide only moderate and short-lived protection against symptomatic Omicron infections”, they concluded.

Second study, “Duration of immune protection of SARS-CoV-2 natural infection against reinfection in Qatar” (preprint) Chemaitelly et al., investigated protection provided by a natural infection for two scenarios:  pre-omicron primary infection against pre-omicron reinfection (i.e. delta-delta), and pre-omicron primary infection against Omicron reinfection (i.e. delta-omicron). With regard to the former the effectiveness peaked at 7 month at 90.5% post primary infection and remained > 70% by the 16 months mark. The authors suggest that effectiveness should still be at least 50% at 22 months. When it comes to the pre-omicron primary infection and its protection against Omicron reinfection, it was 38.1% at the start and declined to 10% at 15 months mark. “Effectiveness of primary infection against severe, critical, or fatal COVID-19 reinfection was 97.3%, irrespective of the variant of primary infection or reinfection, and with no evidence for waning”, they also concluded.

In addition to that the narrative that vaccines offer a great protection from long covid is coming to an end too. This article: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01453-0#ref-CR4  describes a study done on 4.5m people that discovered that the risk of long covid among hospitalised patients is 7% and lower for those who were not hospitalised. In addition to that vaccination against covid lowers the risk of long COVID after infection by only about 15% (study on more than 13 million people). So that makes the 7% risk drop to just under 6%. Make what you want from this.  

To conclude, to say that mRNA vaccines are bad is an understatement. And a very serious at that. The protection does not last longer than a quarter vs a natural immunity that lasts > 1 year. If the negative effectiveness is what I think it is (i.e. the vaccinated person is more likely to get infected than the unvaccinated), If left unboosted the risk of infection increases. That may explain why so many vaccinated who decided against the boosters are coming down with covid now as they are more likely to get infected than if they hadn’t taken any mRNA vaccines. Would more rounds of vaccine (boosters) mean greater vulnerability of an individual over long term and therefore a constant/permanent dependence on vaccine? Another conspiracy theory brewing up just there perhaps…?

Unfortunately according to the WHO restrictions shouldn’t be behind us. They are urging Ireland to reintroduce them. They want masks to return, social distancing and interventions to reduce social mixing.

Looks like Leo disagrees...

Listen I'm in Spain two weeks. That's bullsh't

Yes you are right and looking at the hospital graphs the hospitals peaked lower with each wave. Encouraging.

As someone who had a severe reaction I most definitely don't agree that those rates are safe. They can keep their jabs !

Another poster that appears to have missed the sarcasm...for foxsake.

Another interesting study published two days ago: “Effectiveness of BNT162b2 Vaccine against Omicron in Children 5 to 11 Years of Age” by Tan et al., with almost 256k children included in the analysis. 67.7% of the children who were 5 to 11 years of age were fully vaccinated, 12.0% were partially vaccinated, and 20.3% were unvaccinated.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203209

Vaccine effectiveness against all confirmed infections in the fully vaccinated group as compared with the unvaccinated group was 48.8% at 7 to 14 days after the second dose of vaccine, 37.6% at 15 to 29 days after the second dose of vaccine, 28.5% at 30 to 59 days after the second dose of vaccine, and 25.6% at 60 days or more after the second dose of vaccine.

22 serious adverse events after vaccination among children 5 to 11 years of age were reported to the Health Sciences Authority in Singapore.

Among hospitalized children, only 5 received supplemental oxygen, four of whom were admitted to the intensive care unit. Of these five children, one was unvaccinated, two were partially vaccinated, and two were fully vaccinated.

There is no evidence that vaccination protects children against getting very sick and requiring oxygen and ICU treatment. Rapidly declining vaccine efficacy certainly does not help with keeping the kids protected from the infection and consequently from missing out on education.

More importantly however, the risk of severe adverse reaction to the vaccine is over 4x greater than the risk of a child getting very sick and being admitted to intensive care.

Yet another study from Qatar: “Protection of SARS-CoV-2 natural infection against reinfection with the Omicron BA.4 or BA.5 subvariants”, published 12 July 2022.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.11.22277448v1

Effectiveness of a previous pre-Omicron infection against symptomatic BA.4/BA.5 reinfection was 15.1%, and against any BA.4/BA.5 reinfection irrespective of symptoms was 28.3%. Effectiveness of a previous Omicron infection against symptomatic BA.4/BA.5 reinfection was 76.1%, and against any BA.4/BA.5 reinfection was 79.7%. That is for a period of more than 90 days - at least 90 days between infections.

They have done a sensitivity analysis to adjust for vaccinations and found that vaccines had negligible effect on the data and did not changed the results. The protection levels were due to a natural immunity caused by previous infections.

Misquoting studies again?

Tye findings if the study are not what you have posted above. You have taken a couple of lines out of context and come to your own misguided conclusions.

This is the result of the study ...

"Our findings indicate the protective effect of vaccination against infection and severe illness. We found that the vaccine effectiveness against hospitalization was higher with full vaccination with two doses of BNT162b2 (82.7%) than with partial vaccination with one dose (42.3%)"

Also 22 severe reactions was 0.005% of all doses administered , and while these children were vaccinated during the high infectivity of the Omicron wave, the hospitalisation rate was reduced substantially , and yes , only 5 were admitted to ICU .

In fact what you have omitted is that 6 children developed MIS-C , a very serious condition , of whom only one was fully vaccinated .

This is all in the link you provided, which in fact either proves you don't understand it , don't know how to read it or are deliberately misquoting the data , to what end ...only you know that .