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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Sunday Business Post reporting that Eamon Ryan is hoping to bring the business case before Cabinet next month for approval.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Sounds like the plan is to do it just before the recess then. So early July.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    That seems to be the case, which would be really positive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Brosna1999




  • Registered Users Posts: 15 Brosna1999


    Does anyone have access to the Business Post that could share the article?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The original opening date for Metrolink was 2027. The Gov has yet to even approve the business case - and that is with a Minister for Transport who is the leader of the Green Party, and Metrolink is the 'greenest' policy that there could be. They have yet to submit a Railway Order, and then find a contractor under tendering process that will be anything but quick.

    At this rate, there will not be a shovel in the ground, let alone a TBM before 2030.

    So why the interminable delay?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    I believe the tendering is already happening and will continue alongside the ABP approval.

    The interminable delay is a function of a lot of different things unfortunately. The number of consultations/reworkings to ensure its on a sound legal footing to avoid it being held up by courts, the issues with the sewer, covid didn't help.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    One thing is absolutely true is that the first train will not be moving in 2027.

    What surprises me on a daily basis is how little Ryan is out there promoting Metrolink in any way.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No, but they weren't projected to for several years now.

    Ryan backed himself into a corner with his support for that Rethink Metrolink nonsense. His own constituents don't like the plan as it is formulated - I think its a massive mistake though alright.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    You keep saying this. It's not delayed because of a lack of promotion. It's delayed because of the huge workload, lack of experience and lack of resources. Your role as an advocate for MetroLink is to face that and figure out how to change that. Ryan standing in front of a podium every week to tell everyone that there are no updates won't change that.

    I don't want Ryan out there promoting MetroLink. I want him whipping his agencies to deliver it quicker. If he's not talking about that, I don't want to hear from him. Promotion of MetroLink isn't the issue. Public support for MetroLink isn't the issue.

    The only people he needs to focus on promoting it to right now is his non-Dublin cabinet colleagues.

    Rethink MetroLink hasn't gotten anything out of Ryan for over a year. I was told that his people got sick of them and pretty much told them to piss off. Rethinkers are currently relying on support from local councillors like Dermot Lacey and TDs from West Dublin and Kildare.

    His tone on the Rethinkers changed drastically after that:




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    "Ryan standing in front of a podium every week to tell everyone that there are no updates won't change that.

    I don't want Ryan out there promoting MetroLink. I want him whipping his agencies to deliver it quicker."

    Well at the moment he's not doing either with any success.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I expect Ryan to be out there saying what he is doing about Metrolink, and the fact that he is not out there saying what he is doing leads me to think that he is not doing anything.

    If tendering is progressing, like pre-qualifying, should be announced.

    How will it be funded - it should be by the EIB, not PPP, as PPP is just Public money into Private Pockets. Why is tis not part of public discourse?

    I want to hear him saying he is whipping his agencies into action, and how that is going - not radio silence.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    You and I might want to hear more about PQQs and PPPs every week but 99% of people who want it built don't. They just want major updates.

    No Minister is going to spend their time giving intricate details to the enthusiastic 1%. All the procurement details are publicly available to anyone who wants to read about it. No media outlet will publish an article about it though. Unless it's called MetroLink Weekly.

    He has to present the biggest infrastructure project in the history of the state to a cabinet composed mostly of members who don't care about MetroLink in less than a month. While inflation is going through the roof. Getting it over the line and the trade-offs that will be required to do that has to be priority. Not giving info about PQQs to nerds like me (who can find it on etenders).



  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Munurty



    Eamon Ryan, the Minister for Transport, is to bring the business case for the Metrolink project to cabinet next month, as part of a push to get the project under construction before the government’s term expires.

    The 19km Metrolink line from north of Swords to Dublin city centre is going to be the single most expensive infrastructure project in the history of the state and is currently not due to be completed until at least 2035.

    This high cost has raised questions about whether it will ever be approved. However, Ryan is keen to get the go-ahead from cabinet for the preliminary business case so that planning permission can be secured and a contractor appointed while he is in office.

    A government source said the hope was to get construction under way within the current government’s term in office, which will end in two and a half years’ time.

    Ryan has confirmed that he will bring the preliminary business case for Metrolink to cabinet next month.

    He said that the second milestone in the project would be an application for planning permission, known as a railway order, to an Bord Pleanála.

    “Work is ongoing on the extensive set of documentation which is required for a project of this scale and, subject to the government decision, the project will be ready to seek planning permission in the autumn,” he said, in response to questions from Duncan Smith, the Labour Dublin-Fingal TD, and Róisín Shortall, the Social Democrats co-leader.

    Once completed, it is anticipated the Metrolink will be able to carry 20,000 passengers an hour in each direction, with the journey between Dublin Airport and the city centre taking 20 minutes.

    Smith said the submission of the preliminary business case next month was “long overdue but a welcome step”. “I hope we can move forward with no further delay.”

    Ryan has said publicly that construction will begin on the project “once planning permission has been obtained”. However, Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) which has overall responsibility for the project, has signalled that the completion of the entire project will take at least 13 years.

    Peter Walsh, the chief executive of TII, told the Dáil’s Public Accounts Committee earlier this year that he hoped to get planning permission from An Bord Pleanála within “two years” and then it would take “at least” two more years to select a contractor.

    He said it would then take nine years to build the metro, giving a completion date of 2035, “all going well”.

    Shortall said the Metrolink had first been promised back in 2007. She said she was disappointed there was such a lack of urgency when there was a “Green Minister for Transport”.

    “There continues to be gridlock on the northside of Dublin, there’s been huge apartment development based on the promised Metrolink and there’s little or no chance we’ll meet our emissions targets on transport,” she said.

    The state has already spent around €250 million on planning work and land acquisition for Metrolink. Shortall received confirmation from TII last week that it was planning to submit the railway order application in the third quarter of this year.

    TII pointed out that there was no deadline for An Bord Pleanála to deal with the railway order but said that it would develop the procurement documents at the same time.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    To be honest, I’d rather if Eamon Ryan had as little involvement in this project as possible. He has enough calamities to be dealing with at the minute than getting involved with this (Dublin Airport, the mess regarding electricity generation, offshore wind planning etc).

    And re: getting support for MetroLlink outside Dublin, he’d find that task far easier if he didn’t spend the last 2 years repeatedly getting in the way of and obstructing projects in other parts of the country



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,807 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Ryan is a disaster of a politician.

    Because of his ideological leanings he simply has zero business having the transport portfolio.

    ’ You don’t need a car to live in rural Ireland ‘

    nope, not a hope, I’d say we’d be doing well to have it by 2031. Genuinely.

    as a family member said.. “I was still working when it got to go ahead and to think there is about 0.0001% chance I’ll still be here to use it.. by the time they get it built”

    Ryan probably wants it delayed until the tech is available to move all the plant and machinery to sites in ‘electric’ 40 ft trucks.

    What I’d do is remove Metrolink from his transport portfolio… a separate ministerial position given the shîtshow of incompetence .. ‘Metrolink Delivery’ and just have them work daily on getting it built.

    Ryan is 10000% out of his depth… absolute state of this country and political leadership of it that a man like that can end up with a portfolio of such critical importance to the state and fûck it up on us.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    I don't think he is giving them anything, but I also think he knows its not a particularly popular project among his own constituents (no thanks to himself). I don't think its restricting whatever work he is doing, but wouldn't surprise me if it reduces how much he talks about it.

    I would disagree that it doesn't matter at all - there is an overriding sentiment that "sure it'll get cancelled anyway" that I think it would be better to try and counter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,543 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There is such a thing as announcement fatigue.

    Constantly making announcements about projects just infuriates people.

    However I really do wish that TII and the NTA could come up with timeframes for the project that are realistic, given the staffing constraints, rather than every deadline continually being missed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭prunudo


    What is actually involved in the business case. Is it simply a report to ensure it is value for money and that it won't run at a loose or is it more. The way its mentioned here it sounds like a needlessly complex piece of the jigsaw. I would have thought even if costs 10bn it will still be value for money in 50 years time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's rubber stamping/ time wasting exercise. Designed to make processes excessively complex



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,233 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It's a CYA exercise, so that ministers can say that they've listened to the experts, and the experts say this will be a good deal.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In 1981, CIE were asked to investigate a tram system for Dublin. That is 25 years before it opened.

    Look, Mary O'Rourke, as Minister for Transport, delayed the Luas project by asking for more details - objecting to the underground part as 'people would be worried about going underground'. Luas was a 'dead waste of money' and a projected white elephant before it was built. Once built is was the best public project since forever, and has been at crush capacity ever since.

    A Dublin Metro was proposed in 2005 in Transport 21. If it opens in 2035, it will be 30 years in design and construction. That is nearly a full working life.

    Metrolink has been handled very badly - even before it was Metrolink - when it was Metro North. What is so hard about it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think it's psychological. The luas was decades coming for example but once the first lines opened, extensions were rolled out with little fuss every couple of years. I think it'll be the same with metro, once line 1 is built, extensions and a second line will be of little media or nimby interest



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    LUAS was a projected white elephant by all and sundry in the media also (and the fact they were so horrendously wrong has not stopped many of them continuing to pontificate on public transport in Dublin). The government are forever constrained by what they can get the public on board with.

    I think more should be made of the success of almost every major public transport investment (DART, LUAS, BusConnects is shaping up nicely) but the nature of politics is that those who get these things started are generally not those who are in power when the benefits are shown. That being said, I cannot see how getting shovels in the ground on this would be anything but well received by the vast majority of Dublin at least.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The media, and particularly RTE, will always bring edge cases as the example of all.

    Just listen to the stories they broadcast on the current energy inflation. They take a woman with a disabled child that has significant energy requirements to power a hoist, and the need for elevated room temperatures. Now I am not belittling her needs, but it is far from typical.

    The publicity given to the Dunville Ave locals and access to Mortons shop on the possible closure of the level crossing would make you believe these deprived locals would actually have to take the Metrolink to get around instead of relying on their 4by4 tractors.

    The Irish Times also make big on the negative aspects of any rail based or PT project, while ignoring the positive aspects that would have many benefits to the average person.

    No wonder Metrolink continues to wallow in that never never land of waiting for approval by Gov and its various agencies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,543 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Can we PLEASE move on from Dunville Avenue?

    It is irrelevant since the issue of the sewer became apparent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Indeed.

    We've been told I don't know how many times only to talk about the Metrolink, as planned, here.

    Yet, yet again, Dunville Sam brings up extraneous issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We can't have politicians pushing WRC-style projects through on the nod for regional political gain, though, either. But there has to be some way of getting projects approved and started with both a reasonable level of evaluation and oversight without unreasonable second-guessing and delays.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Dunville Ave was mentioned as an example of the negative attitude certain media outlets have towards PT projects.

    A GAA club (Fianna) also became a big issue driven again by social media. They actually lost out from the protests, IMHO.

    These protests have all delayed the Metrolink project.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    Yes. The George 'How can I buy a TV in Arnotts if I can't drive across TOWN?!' Hook brigade are thankfully a dying breed. Radical ideas and implementation are still needed.



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