Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379098#Comment_121379098

If Metrolink is fully automated as far as drivers, then there is a significant need for Revenue Protection Officers - who might as well be Transport Police who will mitigate anti-social behaviour as well as revenue protection. I doubt that there will be full time staffing at every station.

In the last decade or so, I think I have only once had my ticket checked on the Dart. Given that most ticket barriers on the minor stations on the Dart (as far as I can see) have been removed or are permanently open, there appears to be few if any RPOs operating on the Dart.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379130#Comment_121379130

on the Dart it's only really the City Centre stations that are monitored. Even the stations that are permanently manned, you can usually get out through an open barrier - e.g. in Bray there's usually a turnstile permanently open on platform 2.

p_haugh

Blackrock has a turnstile permanently open these days, and I believe it's still monitored (at least the ticket office seems to be open any time I've been there!)

Sam Russell

There should be visible Revenue Protection always - at least somewhere on the network - such that the chance of being caught without a ticket is not zero.

When I go through the self scan in Tesco, I get checked from time to time. (Yet to be found in error). It should be the same on IR and Dublin Bus, for all routes, trains and buses, and all stations.

Uniformed Transport Police would (or should) have the power of a Garda on (or near - hot pursuit) company property. On the spot fines should apply as in continental Europe.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121381018#Comment_121381018

The RPU are patrolling the Irish Rail network every day - just because you haven’t seen them doesn’t mean that they aren’t out there.

With the city buses in Dublin, given that there are only two fares, the cheaper of which requires interaction with the driver, the risk of fare evasion is far less.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121381043#Comment_121381043

Saw a bloke just walk past the bus driver yesterday making no attempt at any payment. Driver just ignored the situation.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121381833#Comment_121381833

I can recall at least 5 times in the last year where I've waited up to 5minutes while the driver waited for people to come back and pay, then kicking off customers. I've also noticed drivers ignoring fare dodging, but mostly instances where the driver won't let people on when their card is beep beep beeping

Ronald Binge Redux

Nearly twenty years ago Finance put a spoke into Metro. They indulged in a bait and switch, suggesting a branch off the DART. Funny enough, that didn't get built either. If some posters wonder why many are cynical about the delivery of the present project, experience teaches us unless it's a road, it will only go ahead after much fluting about.

From:ireland.com

Saturday, 10th January, 2004

The Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, is to bring to cabinet in the next two months his final proposals for a metro link between Dublin city centre and the airport.

He is expected to tell colleagues that the link can be built for less than €2.5 billion, and could be open to its first passengers by the end of 2009.

However the proposals could be seriously hampered by the fact that the project is feasible only as the first stage in a much more ambitious 20-year underground scheme, costing up to €20 billion.

The Department of Finance is still opposed to the project on the basis of a report it commissioned which suggests that a much cheaper alternative exists, the extension of the Dart to the airport, via a new spur line.

The minister has now received indicative costs from the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA) that the Metro link could be built for €2.4 billion, half the figure he was given last year.

This could be done through halving the time for the planning stage of the project from four to two years with new legislation to speed up the planning process.

Legislation to transfer underground property rights to the State is also being prepared.

The route of the proposed line has yet to be finalised however. It will run overground from the Airport, through Ballymun, going underground at Dublin City University in Ballymun.

The final plan is being drafted to include a route passing through Connolly Station, Tara Street and St Stephen's Green at the insistence of the minister.

According to sources in the Department of Transport, Mr Brennan remains confident he can convince colleagues of the merits of the project, and that it remains a realistic proposal.

Last year the plan was put in jeopardy following an initial report from the RPA that the airport link would cost up to €4.8 billion, and take at least seven years to build.

This included four years of planning.

Despite the latest figures, the proposal is still facing considerable opposition from the Department of Finance, which commissioned its own report on a rail link to the airport.

The report has advocated a spur from the Dart line as an alternative.

Mr Brennan is believed to have told Government colleagues on the cabinet sub-committee on infrastructure that the project is a feasible when considered as the first stage of a larger metro scheme. It would greatly increase public transport capacity in the city, while the Dart spur would have a limited impact.

However, according to Government sources there is still a considerable barrier to the project over the overall spending commitment. The feasibility of financing through public-private partnerships is still under consideration.

"It would just be the first of ten planned phases over a 20-year period, so the Government would be committing itself to a much greater spend than €2.4 billion, and a lot of debt, whatever way it's financed,"said the sources.

Idbatterim

Seamus Brennan is one of the decent politicians, over the past few decades. You could count all of them, on one hand! This country has not added a cm to heavy rail system, in how long? A hundred years?

Like I said, it is genius re-inventing the wheel constantly, going for a cheaper "optimised" design. Pure genius, if it wasnt for this reality , called "inflation"... FFG question SF etc on magic money trees and fiscal prudence... It would make you laugh... I do appreciate, that Metrolink, is probably a better over all fictional scheme than Metronorth, but as many others point out, I would prefer to be using metro north today, rather than talking about a hypothetical metrolink. In relation to the build cost of metronorth, the OCS station it has been said, would have been very costly, as it was to be mined if I am correct? look, that may be the case. Was that flaw, going to cost the billions of euro that delaying this scheme has cost?

Lets just hope the economy keeps doing ok, I wont even say crash, they are well capable of cancelling it, if the sums are very significant, without a crash... I mean, imagine things tighten up financially and it looks like they are, as per figures and as reported in our esteemed papers of note recently.

" Fifteen billion euro dublin underground to proceed, as welfare rates are frozen in upcoming budget" This is the kind of bullshit that is totally plausible and actually, more likely than not, to play out...

Podge_irl

This is rather ignoring that the government did not in fact go for the DART spur and instead went ahead with Metro North. It was the Global Financial Crash that stopped it, not politicking.

Sam Russell

Metrolink is not just a connection for the airport to Dublin City Centre - much more.

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385156#Comment_121385156

politician's decided to cancel it... it didnt cancel itself. There were billions of euro available, they borrowed fortunes for things they felt were worth borrowing...

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121385352#Comment_121385352

We didn't have sovereignty over our budget during the crash. The whole point of the Troika arriving to bail us out was that in order to get bailed out we had to cut spending. No government would have been able to push through infrastructure improvements back then.]

Besides, a Dart spur is a vastly inferior project and we opted not to do it because MN/ML was a better option, and is still the better option. Barring massive economic calamity, it will get built. Too much money has been sunk into the project thus far, and too much of the NDP for the north county is predicated on this line getting built.

prunudo

Whatever about cancelling the projects, the biggest mistake was not even keeping a bare minimum/ skeleton staff design team on board. Even they had of been brought under one umbrella group.

spacetweek

So much to unpack in that article from 2004!

>This could be done through halving the time for the planning stage of the project from four to two years with new legislation to speed up the planning process.

Whatever happened to that legislation?? And four years for planning seems quaint now, since ML kicked off in 2015 and won't start construction until 2025.

>Legislation to transfer underground property rights to the State is also being prepared.

I googled this, not sure if anything major was changed on that occasion. Looks like you don't own rights to "mines and minerals" in Ireland when you're a property owner. The State still has rights to them and can CPO you.

>The final plan is being drafted to include a route passing through Connolly Station, Tara Street and St Stephen's Green at the insistence of the minister.

A routing via Connolly and Tara sounds very awkward and this is the first I've heard of it. MN ended up going Parnell Square - O'Connell Bridge - Stephen's Green, so Brennan did not get his way on this. Now ML is O'Connell St - Tara - Stephen's Green.

Agreed about Brennan being sound, he was a very decent politician and certainly one of the best Ministers for Transport we've had in living memory.

Pete_Cavan

DCC have issued a tender for Architect Led Integrated Design Team to relocate and expand the existing facilities at Markievicz Leisure Centre to form a much larger sports and leisure hub within the existing Irishtown Stadium Site;

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=2510550

Another step in the right direction.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397627#Comment_121397627

Have to admit, I really thought that the MLC would be a sticking point with DCC, and was pessimistic about it being solved easily. Having the Metrolink project move and upgrade the facilities at the same time was a genius move by all involved.

spacetweek

Great news. There’ll be moaners who say Ringsend is a bit far from Townsend st but it’s the best we can do. At least they’re replacing it at all.

Wayne Gorsky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703317#Comment_119703317

Without doubt, if the will was really there...what are the reasons given for that station to be exactly there anyway? And why it can't be shaped differently to preserve the pub, or more under ground or whatever...

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449657#Comment_121449657

The station has to be there because that's the only area that has the two existing train line in close proximity to a major road. The interchange potential there is through the roof, and it'll be one of the busiest stations in Ireland from the day it opens.

In order to control costs, all of the stations are of a basic design, with shared characteristics. All constructed the same way, which is to dig out from the top down.

Those constraints are the reason the pub is going, same with the Tara St apartments.

Could they move the station to keep the pub? Sure, they could move it south, but doing that means that an apartment block will be going instead, and given a choice between an apartment block and a pub, then there's only going to be one winner there.

Could they mine out the station from underneath the pub? Sure, they could do that. However, the price of doing that is astronomical. Far better value for money to CPO the pub and build the station using methods proven to keep control of costs.

Could they redesign the station so that all of the functionality/interchange is kept, and keep the pub? No, I doubt it. There's just too many constraints there, not least the direction of the tunnel itself, going North-South.

Bear in mind that the design of these stations as already significantly changed from the original spec, with a significant reduction in length. In the first set of plans, the apartment blocks at Dalcassian Downs were going to be CPO'ed as well.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449657#Comment_121449657

Because the rail lines aren't underground - how could the station be?

They are building a new railway station there at the same time as the metro. Perhaps it could be slightly further west, but there is a limit to how much the Metro can bend out and it's probably close enough to its limit as is so the connection would suffer.

All in all, it's a pretty small price to pay.

notJoeJoe

In my opinion having both Metrolink and DART connections to the island's busiest airport would be extremely beneficial, considering the two lines serve different areas, but for some reason everything has to be "either this, or this".

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449899#Comment_121449899

Extending the Metro to Donabate would be a good idea I think.

notJoeJoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449918#Comment_121449918

Not exactly on the topic of Metrolink but DART+ North intends to run a DART style service all the way from Connolly to Drogheda, so it would stop at Donabate.

The DART+ projects will definitely change the face of Dublin's transport and it's good that it interfaces with Metrolink at places like Glasnevin. One of the few times people have planned ahead in this country, lol.

Pete_Cavan

Extending Metrolink to Donabate isn't realistic given the level of development around the station. It would have to be Rush&Lusk, you could have 4 heavy rail platforms there.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450121#Comment_121450121

Could you cut and cover through the Demesne?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450137#Comment_121450137

No, there would be enormous opposition to that and I'd assume environmental/conservation reasons why it couldn't happen. You'd also have enormous difficulty sitting a Metro station beside Donabate station given the existing buildins and road layouts, you'd be threading the eye of a needle to avoid everything and it likely wouldn't suit alignment limitations.

At R&L you'd have lots of space to have 4 heavy rail platforms (I'd terminate DART services there and have commter services going further north) alongside the Metrolink platforms so very easy to change to another service.

bk

Rush & Lusk would be an even better option from a perspective of opening up more land for dense development perspective anyway. The longer distance of R&L versus Donabate allows for the opportunity to build multiple Metrolink stations along the line north of Swords.

That area is massive, you could fit the equivalent of two maybe even three extra Swords along the route of the line.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450523#Comment_121450523

Sorry no, the equivalent of two or more Swords between Swords and R&L station is way OTT. Metrolink plans four stations for Swords along a distance of 3.5km. Estuary station to R&L would be less than 8km. Even at significantly higher density, you'd only get one urban area in between otherwise you end up merging Swords and Lusk into one sprawling mess.

You could develop a new urban area on the R132 between the Tesco distribution centre and Blakes Cross. Develope a town centre in between them and you already have industrial type uses on the outskirts of the new town.

gjim

I don't get the enthusiasm for building new population centres/dormitory towns far from the city, even if they have good public transport links.

Developing masses of housing far/separated from the city core in places like Swords, Tallaght, Mulhuddard/Blanch, Lucan, for me was a historical planning mistakes which is to be regretted and not repeated and compounded.

There is so much brownfield land, derelict sites, underdeveloped land, etc. available within the M50 - this should be the focus for population growth in the future. There's well over 100km2 within the M50 which, with European medium levels of density could accommodate 2m. Then it becomes trivially economically viable to provide a dense rail-based (metro and tram) public transport network in such an area.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455407#Comment_121455407

More than enough room for a couple of million more inside the M50. You look at places such as Broadstone and Glasnevin. They are still like villages and both practically city center.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454796#Comment_121454796

Take a look at a map, you could fit the equivalent of at least 1.5 Swords between Swords and Lusk. Also I’d assume they would continue on the ML as far as Rush, so you’d have another very attractive either to develop between Lusk and Rush.

I’d also suggest that these new areas would be built to a higher density than Swords was originally.

Another thought, once North of Swords, the ML doesn’t just have to go to R&L, the line can split, one line going to R&L and another line going more North West.

Dint get me wrong, I’m not saying all of this will happen overnight, I’m talking about how the city can develop over the next decades as it grows. You could open the line to R&L and then gradually add stations along the line from Swords as it grows out, a North West split would be reserved, but could come much later.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455407#Comment_121455407

But this area isn’t far from the city, it is extremely close.

Lusk is just 20km from O’Connell Street and the area we are talking about is 15 to 20km from the city.

By comparison Bray is also 20km from the city and of course the entire area between Bray is already developed or will be.

It would be pretty stupid not to develop this area.

To put this in comparison, Drogheda is 40km, Nass 30km, Greystones 27km and people think nothing of commuting these distances. 20km or less would be considered close to the city in most decent sized cities.

Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree with your comment about poor planning decisions in the past, low density developments. But what I’m suggesting is fixing that at this location by building tall dense apartment building (and mixed development) at this location.

Basically this is a golden opportunity for us to do this sort of dense commuter development right.

Also I completely agree with us also developing all the Brown field sites inside the M50. It would be madness not too.

But I think you underestimate just how large the population of Dublin is predicted to grow and how many people you can fit into these brownfield sites, in particular with likely limitations on height due to NIMBY neighbours.

in reality over the next decades we will likely need all these brownfield sites, plus the West of Dublin Dart+ developments AND all that area north of Swords just to keep up with population growth demands.

spacetweek

It's a certainty that brownfield will not get you out of a housing crisis. It just doesn't deliver at the level needed, and it's slower to build on than greenfield due to the need for site remediation and the proximity of NIMBY neighbours.

ML in North Dublin, and DART beyond Adamstown is the way to go in the establishment of new railway-based towns. "Far from the city" should be measured by train journey time not distance and there is plenty of land. In comparison, Wicklow is not a great place for this; beautiful landscape, terrible N11 congestion and single track tunnel under Bray Head mean that even the current level of housing development in Greystones is overbuilding. And DART West isn't great either as the only two sites are Westmanstown north of Lucan which is mostly a golf course, and halfway between Leixlip and Maynooth, which has the Carton Estate on one side and will be the site of the depot.

Agreed that it could be a good idea to split ML with one part terminating at R&L and the other following the M1 off into the distance. Demand to the R&L branch will be low, the other one will be busier.

Zebra3

Isn’t the planned new DART depot beyond Maynooth close to Kilcock?

L1011

Yes. There is no space between Maynooth and Leixlip anyway.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121456591#Comment_121456591

Adding 60,000+ people between Swords and Lusk would go against every bit of modern planning practice. Even at multiples the density of Swords, it would require a huge area which simply isn't available. You have the M1 on one side and the Malahide Estuary SAC on the other side, the developable area isn’t that big.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459272#Comment_121459272

The bar for justifying for developing green fields is only getting higher, every piece of guidance and legislation from local to EU level is largely against it, certainly on a large scale. And developing new areas requires far more in terms of infrastructure which takes a long time to develop from scratch.

Metrolink to R&L would be extremely busy with people changing from/to the heavy rail line. In addition to commuters, huge numbers would use it to access Dublin airport, including a large portion of the population of NI. I'd say the additional passengers it would add would be significant relative to the cost of the extension.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458172#Comment_121458172

Sorry, you're right.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459300#Comment_121459300

Don't agree with any of that. No reason not to build on low-value land and proximity to the M1 is a plus not a minus. If there are barriers, they need to be removed - otherwise how is the housing crisis ever going to end?

"Extremely busy" might be hyperbole for R&L. The number of NI passengers changing to ML there would be very small, just the rail share of the NI share of Dublin Airport's passengers. And local demand would be low that far out of the city. It'd be a quiet station, if a useful one.

Sam Russell

Mod: Keep to the topic please. Post deleted.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459272#Comment_121459272

No it would not, nonsense, it would be right in line with best European practice of developing new rail oriented dense commuter towns.

The fact it is next to the M1 would be a bonus that would make it more attractive.

Of course you would have to work around the SAC, I’m not suggesting otherwise. Just to be clear, I’m not talking about developing on SAC land or knocking native forests or anything like that. I’m talking about developing on standard farmers fields.

I have to laugh and roll my eyes when people talk about environmental issues with developing farmers fields. Most of Irelands countryside is the most industrialised and sterilised farming land in Europe. Most of it has little environmental benefit at all.

New tall apartment buildings surrounded by parks with newly planted native trees and native wildflower gardens would likely have a greater environmental diversity then relatively sterilised farmers fields that have pesticides spread over them frequently!

And BTW 60,000 extra people is nothing, the government predict that by 2040, the population of Dublin will grow by 250,000 people and another 250,000 in the GDA. That is a lot of people, we will need to build a lot to house them all.

Busman Paddy Lasty

I would not ignore the value of food security for the country. That's some of the best land in the country, I believe a crazy number like 80% of Ireland's fresh veg is grown in Fingal.

More expensive but converting existing industrial sites on the Metrolink corridor to residential would be more of an encouragement for active travel as well as using Metro, by way of being closer to existing amenities and town.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460450#Comment_121460450

Ireland has no problems with food security. Ireland does have problems with housing.

Brownfield and greenfield development are going to be necessary and there is no way a rail corridor like Metrolink would not be heavily developed.

Sam Russell

Just the shear capacity of the Metrolink routing should be exploited by building high density housing and supporting infrastructure including commercial employment, schools and medical centres.

The Dublin Industrial Estate would be a good place to start. It is close to the Cross Guns proposed station that would serve the ML and Dart plus.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460450#Comment_121460450

Exactly this. We are reducing land productivity now by choice for environmental reasons, productivity could unwantedly fall even further due to climate change. And that's before considering a reduction in quantity of productive land from climate change. Farming is adapting and it is a slow process but undoubtedly greater biodiversity will be achieved by retaining agricultural use but with rewilding than concreting over the fields and planting a few trees in man-made parks. Food security is going to be a major issue going forward, those with the best levels of it are likely to be the most successful.

Creating dormitory towns on fields went out 20 years ago. There is no shortage of previously developed but underutilised land available in Dublin. Plans are already in motion for development of vast areas of industrial land around Dublin, that will be developed much faster than building new towns with new infrastructure. At Swords alone, there is 140ha between the M1 and R132, excluding existing residential.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459418#Comment_121459418

A ML connection to the rail line would result in a big increase in demand for rail services. It makes a huge number of jobs in north Dublin an easy commute for many people. It would also result in many journeys to/from the airport switching to rail/ML combo. Some trains could terminate at R&L allowing for greater frequency north of there which would make it even more attractive. You'd even have people travelling a few stations north by train to switch to ML. Such an interchange would be well used.

bk

I’m sorry Pete, but no, this would have zero impact on Irelands food security.

Ireland ranks as the 2nd best in the world for food security. We exported 80% of the food we grow.

If we were in any way concerned about food security we wouldn’t focus so heavily meat and dairy which while make the most money are relatively inefficient use of land in terms of calories per hectare versus crops and veg.

Developing these lands would have little or no impact on our food exports, never mind security

BTW we do have one concern with food security and that is fertiliser, most of which use to come out of Russia and Ukraine. We need to get self sufficient on that. We need to build out the infrastructure to generate green hydrogen, from which we then generate green ammonia which makes fertiliser.

BBTW I do like the idea of terminating some trains at RL to help increase frequency north of there.

Though I do find it hypocritical that you want to increase frequency and thus develop towns like Drogheda which are 40km from Dublin, but then don’t want to develop areas just 15km from the city, doesn’t make any sense!

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460499#Comment_121460499

I did not say Ireland has a problem with food security. As if I didn't know we have problems with housing.

Keeping it has a value. That quality land within 20km of a nation's city centre is a gift. And should be taken into consideration when planning for housing.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461262#Comment_121461262

I'm not saying that Ireland's food security would be threatened but there are many factors here. Reduced yields and increased population will obviously result in less food, even if still way more than enough. Apply that on the global scale, plus there'll be other negative effects from climate change, it is a major consideration. In the coming decades, there is likely to be a strong correlation between a country's ability to sustainably/consistently produce a wide variety of foods and the quality of life of its inhabitants, plus its attractiveness for investment. Keeping as big a surplus as possible is a good strategy.

You seem to be focusing on population growth. Population growth isn’t linear and simply cannot be sustained indefinitely. Growth could slow down and level off over the next decade. There are other issues relating to climate change and reduced biodiversity which are already baked in and will be with us for much longer. Then there are advances in technology and AI, proximity to Dublin might be a much smaller concern in the future.

And developing out towns like Drogheda to accommodate additional people largely within their existing footprint makes perfect sense. It is far more sustainable than building tens of thousands of apartments on farmland. There is nothing hypocritical in me stating that, it is entirely in line with what I have been saying.

cgcsb

New dormitory towns?

I got a bus this morning between the city centre and Inchicore via Old kilmainham and emmet Road, 2kms of near total dereliction, old warehouses or underutilised with late 20th century rotten houses. Then a quick look at the Irish rail works in inchicore. At least 10 massive warehouse type structures with no roofs and weeds coming out of them and very little activity on site. Then you get to kylemore way, a 4km road just derelict.

go to the area east of Stephens Green, Georgian houses unsuitably used as small offices while modern office blocks lie empty, this area and building stock is much more suitable for residential, the area is completely dead after dark.

A few kms up the road just north of clontarf Road DART Station (one stop away from Connolly) we have Clontarf GOLF COURSE.

West of that just off griffith avenue we have a literal farm at elmhurst, literally with agricultural buildings

These are just a few examples of how we could quite comfortably fit irelands entire population within the m50 with ample parkland and green space remaining, not that we ought to have that but theres quite clearly more than enough room for about 1.5m to live within the M50