Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Podge_irl

But there are no actual signs of ML being shelved or a "cheaper option" being looked at.

I get the skepticism but there is genuinely no sign of anything but this moving forward, albeit too slowly. And the speed is mostly not a direct choice of government but a side effect of previous underfunding in areas. ABP staffing is being fixed as one example, but alas too late to do much about the railway order for metrolink.

Idbatterim

there is talk about the understaffing of ABP, and it obviously is. But the planning system doesnt seem at all fit for purpose, critical infrastructure schemes, there should be way less bureaucracy and messing around with them in my opinion. What way to they do this in Spain etc, where they actually have experience and deliver quickly and efficiently?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370282#Comment_121370282

The biggest thing most other countries have is a legal system that is not based on common law. It's not just the planning system, it's the entire legal system as well.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368974#Comment_121368974

The only thing predictable here is someone posting an article with nothing to do with Metrolink and spewing misery. NTA are not funding Metrolink, it is a TII project and they will have built in inflation in their cost models. It is clear that significant work is progressing while we wait for planning approval. This harking back to MetroNorth has to stop, it was a vastly inferior project anyway.

MetroLinker

Link: https://www.tii.ie/careers/vacancies-2023/TII_MetroLink_Programme-Director-Information_Booklet.pdf

On the link above for the Metrolink Programme Director, they give a current programme for the works (this may have been published already here but I couldn't see it):

So it looks like another year for the Railway Order notification though they could probably just pass it on directly to the High Court to begin the inevitable judicial review process.

cgcsb

Shocking that a railway order can take over 2 years to get through abp. We need emergency legislation that automatically grants all sustainable infrastructure and high density housing schemes currently with abp for the next few years.

In the meantime demolish the current planning system and build a new one bases on international best practice.

It's unfortunate but that's what needs to happen, we're never going to catch up to the developed world standard of infrastructure if the developed world continues to advance and we're pissing about with 2 year planning permissions for critical projects.

Only last week we seen how how Eirgrid has to pay farmers in the Republic €50k to place pilons on land and the same project proposes to pay farmers in Northern Ireland only €5k. And it was the farmers in the south that were on the news saying they're going to go to prison to stop it 😒

We also seen residential property developers saying they're going to think twice about future projects in Ireland because of 2 or 3 year legal battles.

Quite clearly our system encourages and supports petulance and entitlement.

Zebra3

And don’t mention the current situation of a criminal investigation in to objections for go away money.

MetroLinker

I've commented previously on the whole CPO process in Ireland needing an overhaul, which would possibly help these matters. I think the other danger for these lengthy projects is that the Environmental Impact Assessment can become a stick to beat them with when the regulations change at a European level.

Let's face the reality though, every aspect of this project from planning through to operation is going to need to withstand a lot of scrutiny. I'm sure a sizeable war chest is in place for the judicial review process. This type of project can't back down from a judicial review so the other side taking the case is in a slightly weaker position where a time/economic bullying approach doesn't work.

Possibly that new section of the High Court (https://www.courts.ie/content/commercial-planning-and-environmental-list) will be in place in time for this project.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370615#Comment_121370615

Stop 'spewing misery' accept everything is lollipops and sunshine and we are getting the Metro no matter what.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370166#Comment_121370166

Metrolink won't be scrapped. There is no current indication that it will be scrapped. Beyond a massive economic crisis hitting the country, similar to 08, Metrolink will be built. Will it be built on time? Thats a different question and more up for debate. But the current time lines seem conservative and I trust the TII to hit their timelines and funding targets more than any other sector to be honest. Let us not forget that BXD was built Under budget.

Mindless cynicisim not borne out by any evidence of how the process has carried out up to now is useless talk.

Idbatterim

The skepticism on this project, isn't coming out of thin air let's he honest... its experience. I hope its built

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121372032#Comment_121372032

What experience?

Im sorry but this is bull, only two major infrastructure projects were cancelled in our recent history, Metro North and Dart Underground and they were cancelled because we got hit by a once in a lifetime recession.

Pretty much every other major infrastructure project that was given the go ahead got built.

All the intercity motorways, the two Luas lines, Luas Cross city, various Luas extensions, expanding the DART to eight carriages, WRC, Port Tunnel, M50 widening, Terminal 2, etc. etc.

We are definitely far too slow to get started, but once a project gets the go ahead, we actually have a pretty great track record of delivering projects. Specially any projects that TII are involved in.

Sam Russell

Hmm, is the M20 included in that list of projects that got the nod and then the boot?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121372032#Comment_121372032

Irish transport infrastructure tends to get built, built on time, and usually has popular support throughout the process. We have never been wealthier as a country than we are now, Metrolink has been the most detailed piece of railway planning in the history of the state, and has managed to get through ABP thus far almost entirely intact, despite our wholly inadequate planning legislation.

Barring a crash worse than 08, Metrolink will be built.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121372954#Comment_121372954

Its due to start in 2027?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373382#Comment_121373382

100%.

Once our economy remains relatively stable, it'll definitely get built. 1 billion a year for 10 years isn't a lot.

It won't even get built by us. It'll be put out to tender so it could be built by Germans.

One thing I wonder is if most of the buses along its route will be removed?

I know London still has loads of buses but do we really need a high frequency spine to Ballymun and to the airport if we've a Metro?

Also all the buses from Swords won't be necessary as the Metro will be at least twice as fast, if not more.

Also it would be great if they could extend it to Sandyford and Donabate DART somehow.

If it could reach the M50 just past Sandyford, you have a big P&R and take loads of cars off the road.

Likewise anyone travelling from the north side or north county Dublin travelling to the south side or vice versa would just use P&R and Metro, so it would take lots of cars off the M50.

A connection with the DART in Donabate is a no brainer.

road_high

It depends where they’re going. I still see merit in direct buses using the port tunnel serving different parts of the city centre and complimenting the metro line. Routes may be altered to feed into the metro line rate than replicate its path

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121372954#Comment_121372954

Yep and it is actually a good illustrative example. It isn't like we can't build roads, at that stage TII had been knocking out new Motorways on time and on budget for more then then ten years with ease. So the M20 shouldn't have been any different.

It is a good example as it shows it isn't engineering or planning ability we lacked, it was cancelled purely because lack of money due to the recession.

It is a real pity the recession hit when it did and not say 5 years later. A few years later and the M20, Metro North and DU would all have been well under way and might have been left to continue. The last 20 years has been a real hole in our infrastrucutre development and we were so close. I do understand the frustration.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373495#Comment_121373495

The M20 will definitely get built also. It's actually the last major road project we need. Everything else will just be bypasses and upgrades of dangerous roads.

I know the Ringaskiddy road is being done but that's only a few kms.

Galway Ring Rd and Cork Ring Rd might never be done.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373458#Comment_121373458

Not quite sure what Aircoach do post Metrolink, given the lionsshare of their business is ferrying folk from South Dublin to the airport, especially if ML goes 24 hrs

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373843#Comment_121373843

The Copenhagen Metro is 24/7 so maybe Dublin's will be.

I guess Aircoach will find other routes, most of Dublin has no Metro.

Cookiemunster

I'm pretty sure ML is due to run 20hrs a day.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373843#Comment_121373843

I'd hope it would be 24/7 too.

On Aircoach/DX, I'd keep in mind that many cities that have Metro's and Rail to the airport, also have coach type services often competing on the same routes!

A lot of people like the comfort and service that these type of coach services give. A member of staff helpfully putting your bag under the bus, so you can then relax on comfy seats above and in some cases be brought almost directly to your hotel by a helpful driver. If you are a tourist who is new to a city, that can be very helpful. Versus having to drag your bags on a Metro, maybe have to stand with the luggage and squeeze in, little customer support, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be an impact and lose of customers, specially to folks living in Dublin, but I think there would still be room for coach types services, perhaps with some route adjustments and perhaps a reduction on frequency.

Thinking about it, if the Airlink 747 was still around, I'd think it would be worse impacted given it more bus like service, perhaps Metrolink played a part in the decision to withdraw this service.

Of course as mentioned above, they could also serve other parts of Dublin. Also it wouldn't impact their Cork/Belfast/Galway routes, nor their airport parking service.

Personally I think the biggest danger to Aircoach is some bad business decisions they have been making lately and the competition they face from Dublin Express/Citylink.

Overall, I know in the past there were fears by Dublin Bus drivers when the Luas was being built, but what we found is that the population is growing so quickly that these new services barely keep up and that the buses and drivers just end up getting used elsewhere. The Dublin City Bus fleet is the same or slightly larger then it was pre Luas!

In other words, a rising tide lifts all boats.

marno21

The only sensible outcome for MetroLink would to be run 24/7. The airport is close to a 24 hour operation between late arrivals and early departures, and the transatlantics are in at 5am some mornings. There are many flights in after 12am also.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121374325#Comment_121374325

"The system is capable of operating on a 24hr basis, however it is proposed the system will operate between 5.30am and 12.30am, 7 days per week." - so 19 hours a day. I guess they could change if the numbers dictate. You'd think it would operate later at weekends.

"Over 175,000 people and 250,000 jobs will be accessible to the stations by foot alone." - according to government report.

I thought it would be more than 175,000

The population along the section from Ballymun to Estuary will increase sharply once it starts construction.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373458#Comment_121373458

I was going to say that the likes of the 33 would be curtailed to terminate at Estuary/Dublin Airport, but then I remembered that that will already happen with bus connects, with the 33 being replaced by the L85 to Dublin airport!

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121374424#Comment_121374424

If it opened tomorrow 24hr operation would be more than justified. In 10 years time it'll be over capacity and serving a major hub airport

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375204#Comment_121375204

Barcelona Metro isn't 24 hours.

It's 5am to 12 weekdays. Til 2am on Friday. Then it goes all night on Saturday night.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375214#Comment_121375214

Barcelona is a much older heavy rail system with continuous maintenance issues and no driverless operation. Dublin's metro will be more similar to Copenhagen.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375230#Comment_121375230

Yeah I'm not saying it's not possible. Just comparing.

We'll have to see I guess.

The population along its route could increase 100,000 in next 20 years

p_haugh

When I was in Madrid over the summer, their metro was ~6am-2am pretty much every day. Was very handy getting home after staying out for some drinks 😅

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375253#Comment_121375253

With Swords alone that is a given. Plenty of space for expansion in Swords and to the north of Swords.

Repo101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373843#Comment_121373843

They will still have a share along with other bus companies. Peak time in T1 Monday to Friday is 05:00-07:00. If your only alternative to a bus is luas/rail then you will still need bus as the Luas only starts at 05:45. I would hope ancillary services such as Luas, Dart and trains at Heuston are expanded but I would say unlikely, for example first train into Heuston is 06:37 for example.

matrim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121374424#Comment_121374424

It might not need to run 24 hours every day but ending at 12.30 is way too early especially at weekends.

prunudo

5am starting of operations isn't great for anyone hoping to catch one of the early round of flights.

Edit, fat fingers should have said isn't not is 🤦🏻‍♂️

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375706#Comment_121375706

Agreed, it really should run until 3am or even all night Friday, Saturday and bank holidays Sunday.

I understand the need for maintenance, but with a new system, that should be doable Sunday to Thursday nights.

Of course Copenhagen and elsewhere figured out how to do 24/7 operations and still do maintenance, they have the ability to close sections of one side of track, so trains can continue to bypass the closed section under maintenance (at less frequency obviously). I’d hope that a brand new system would be built with this ability from the start.

spillit67

While I do think we are a few years behind where we should be (I think this should have started in 2021), there is some OTT criticism here.

We actually built a lot in the 2000s, it just so happened that it was 1) a car centric world and 2) our road infrastructure was miles behind the rest of the developed world.

We plugged that gap and were about to start on transport and then the **** hit the fan.

I do believe that a big mistake was not continuing with core teams advancing projects that could he picked up off the plans when needed. In reality we went back to the drawing board only when funds started to become clear.

I am also annoyed that we didn’t just continue working on Luas lines behind LXC.

We are where we are though and this will happen. What annoys me as I know like every other project that people will moan right the way through it’s construction.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375706#Comment_121375706

Metro starting service at 5:30am is totally inadequate for a major international airport like Dublin. Unusually for an airport of its size, most of the aircraft based at DUB depart in the morning bank of departures because Aer Lingus and Ryanair don't overnight their European fleets at outstations. Passengers are advised to arrive at least 2h before departure which means that you can only use metro for flights departing after 7:30am. By 7:30 tomorrow morning, there will already have been 60 flight departures, this is during November which is probably the quietest month of the year for air passenger traffic. Assuming these are full 737 aircraft, that's over 200 passengers a plane or over 13k passengers a day not served by metro once completed. That equates to nearly 5m passengers a year for an airport with, what, ~25m+ passengers a year?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375518#Comment_121375518

Aircoach will need to streamline some services.

No real need to be going through the city centre, for example.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376519#Comment_121376519

Good point.

I'm sure it's designed to be adjusted.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376511#Comment_121376511

100% on they should've continued extending the Luas.

We had the money and work force.

Continuing through Finglas and on to the M50 for a P&R seems like a no brainer.

Also extending to Bray although that might be been a capacity problem.

A route SW or West also.

I'm not sure about which road can take a Luas though.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376644#Comment_121376644

Sam won't thank me for going ot, but I don't like the idea of constantly extending the current Luas lines. They're too slow for the lenght imo.

Thats why I think the Metro makes so much more sense. Trams are good for short journeys but Metrolink is a far far better pt project.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376644#Comment_121376644

While I agree it should happen, the note of caution that the planners in DoT/NTA/TII probably don’t want to do it until Metrolink is well under construction. Otherwise some idiot politician might suggest with cancel Metrolink and extend the Luas to the airport instead, of completely missing that the main purpose of Metrolink is to connect Swords. The airport is the cherry on top. It just isn’t worth the risk.

Once Metrolink is under way, then absolutely start planning for this.

Sam won't thank me for going ot, but I don't like the idea of constantly extending the current Luas lines. They're too slow for the lenght imo.

That doesn’t really apply here. The Green Luas is 14km long on the south side (as the bird flies, longer in actual length), while it is currently under 4km on the north side and an extension to Dardistown would only make it 8km on the Northside, a very reasonable distance.

You are correct in that it would be too long to bring people from South Dublin to the airport, that is what we need Metrolink for. But separately it is right to extend Luas Northwards to bring more service to the people of North Dublin. The people living in Finglas have as much right to a good Luas service as do the folks living in South Dublin. This extension would be for them and bringing it to Dardistown eventually would be more about giving the folks living in Finglas, etc. easy transfer access to the airport.

spillit67

I’m not entirely in favour of extending the LUAS all the time but I’m firmly of the view that the reason they stopped was because of a (well founded) fear that we were going to do the LUAS everywhere.

It has it’s place though and it was ultimately a mistake to stop.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376761#Comment_121376761

I agree in principle.

For example I know people in Tallaght who get the bus into town as it's quicker.

But the Northside Green line is quick enough outside the city centre as it's off road. I like the idea of Finglas getting a Luas also.

The connection in Bray I like cos of connectivity. Lots of people working in Sandyford/Stillorgan could live in Bray or Shankill or Greystones even.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376907#Comment_121376907

Going wildly off topic I know but where exactly was the alignment going to be from Brides Glen to Bray. Part of the old alignment with the viaduct I know is still there and you can visualise where it connects with the southern dart line, but most of it seems to have been eaten up by houses gardens.

Sam Russell

Mod: Rather than going off topic, open a new thread.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376963#Comment_121376963

There's plans online. Maybe Shankill would be easier or new Dart station in Shanganagh.

Sam Russell

Mod: Shanganagh is not on the Metrolink line between Swords and Charlemont. Nor is Shankill.

Any more off topic posts will be deleted.

You can start a new thread if it is appropriate.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121376907#Comment_121376907

... safer too. It comes back to the desperate need for a dedicated transport police, a thing that politicians here aren't just discouraging, but seem to be actively fighting against.