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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I took some paracetamol and my headache didn't go away, the governments and scientists are all spinning data to make us take paracetamol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone



    Vaccines work after years of research and go through rigorous research. It could take year's of tweaking, engineering and checking different variables of concerns.

    Not months.

    You might as well take an ever lasting gobstopper from Willy Wonka without question.

    Even though they worked for a few weeks, they still didn't go through the right process of development.

    It could take ten to 15 year's.

    The thing most people took was authorized for emergency use and it was for the vulnerable and elderly, healthy people need not have taken it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    mRNA has been in development since the 80's, the safety trials for SARS-COV2 vaccines were multiple times larger than the safety trials for other approved medicines, there is infographics explaining how this works and the timelines (also, they were never emergency approved in Europe, another common CT'r mistake).

    Unless you believe that the scientists and governments are engaging in spin as well.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I'm out ....

    Not for the first time. Last time you had a go you said:

    but I'd but much more weight behind the opinions and studies of those who are experts in the field and know about epidemiology, vaccines and efficacy.

    Oddly enough you still have not linked to any of these experts who contradict what I am saying. But don't worry, you're in good company, nobody else has either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Most of them didn't even take the vaccines because they followed the science, they left it to the vulnerable and elderly. They didn't peddle it for healthy people.

    But healthy people selfishly took it, rather than leaving it to the vulnerable and elderly. Once the vulnerable and elderly were protected there was no need for a big strong fellow like yourself to take it. You wouldn't have had a bad dose of covid I'm sure.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yup. We've gone around full circle and we're back to conspiracy theorists claiming that vaccines aren't tested/the tests are all fake etc etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Lol. Back to childish name calling. You’re what the real world refers to as an useful idiot that spreads other peoples crap for free.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yes they have.

    As mentioned you don't understand or you don't want to understand. Keywords in bold.

    It's a contrarian technique.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Vast vast majority of doctors and scientists took the vaccine. Vaccines aren't a treatment, they are most effective when targeted at those who spread the virus the most rather than those most vulnerable, because that reduces R the most (hence health workers also being targeted first). Now that supply is plentiful, there is no reason not to take one.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,137 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    You obviously don't know how vaccinations work



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    And it's something that doesn't exist because they don't understand any of the terms used.

    What failure means, what prevention means, how trials are run, how any medicines are approved.

    All because they became outcast in their family because they asked the same dumb questions during the second jab, didn't understand the answers, and were sent home as the doctors had enough (this was the start of the descent when they got banned from the COVID forum).



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    No links at all, zero. Total lie to state otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    I do , but it's quite clear that the healthy didn't have to take it. Science say's so, but the greedy bastards in the pharma marketing campaigns said something different.

    You can try going down the route of double speaking to me and trying to twist the discussion. I can see through that tactic.

    But the vaccines served the elderly and vulnerable well, as for the healthy people well they didn't have to take it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    The propaganda has really eaten away at you. If everyone who's vulnerable and elderly takes the vaccines then it should be a choice for others.

    People who are working in health care etc would come under the category of being vulnerable.

    But you don't have a whole factory floor or county council building lining up every autumn for the flu jabs do you ?

    Are you strong and healthy astro.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    What links?

    You've personally created a scenario whereby you think there's "something going on" because early trial results were different (in some regards) with certain variants to later results, with later variants. There's a simple obvious explanation. It's been explained to you, multiple times, by multiple different posters. You "don't get it".

    Even if you did "get it", at this point I very much doubt you'd admit it because you've invested so much time in being so belligerent about such a non-issue.

    Welcome to the "I don't get it" club, the conspiracy theory forum.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Our fundamental disagreement has been the reasons behind approval - I have claimed that they were solely to prevent symptomatic Covid, you have claimed that approval also included reducing the severity of symptoms.

    This is fairly straightforward disagreement, it does not require a giant brain to understand.

    Central to my point is that at the time of approval there was insufficient data on severity. You refuted this in straightforward terms:

     data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials that were then repeated with real world data

    So obviously if I am arguing there was insufficient data, showing that there was in fact "extremely comprehensive" data that was "proven in massive trials" would blow a massive hole in my argument.

    Why not just link to this data and show the source of your claim?

    Is it perhaps because there is no extremely comprehensive data proven in massive trials?

    That's what I am claiming. This data does not exist. And furthermore you know it. Which is exactly why you are unable to link to it.

    I do believe you were under the impression it did exist, but realised you were wrong when you went to go and look for it - the data that does exist is insufficient rather than extremely comprehensive.

    But you'd rather lie and deflect than admit you were wrong. And it is blindingly obvious for everybody to see.

    Of course, the other option is maybe I am wrong about this. And if so, link to the data and then that will be blindingly obvious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I haven't claimed anything about approval, I'm happy with what the official approval given by the EMA says and what the vaccine was approved for.

    But as I said, put together 1 very simple worked example of how you think a trial for approval of any medicine works.

    What I said was correct:

     data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials that were then repeated with real world data

    What they were specifically approved for is down to the EMA process, not me, show us 1 example to follow, don't use COVID as you're getting the terms all mixed up all over the place (or if you do use COVID/SARS-COV2, resist the urge to spin out into nonsense, take it 1 concept at a time).

    We can go into your misunderstanding here once we have 1 example (lest you try and deflect again, if you jump ahead to this, just go and grab the dunce cap as you're unteachable):

    If the scientists/approvers or yourself or whoever else is currently saying the vaccines were approved to reduce the severity of symptomatic disease rather than to prevent symptomatic disease then yes I am calling them liars.

    And just so you're aware, the idea is to go over the very basics, which you are getting wrong, before jumping into complex scenarios, you are jumping straight to something complex and getting over-awed by it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭buzzerxx


    I replied in kind to this post you sent to me..... ''You are a bullshit artist that appears to want people to kill then self for your gratification. **** off with your lies.'' Hypocrite Liar.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    What I said was correct:

     data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials that were then repeated with real world data

    This is incorrect. The data on severity available for approval for the covid vaccines was not "extremely comprehensive" and "proven in massive trials". Quite the opposite. It was insufficient to be conclusive.

    If I am wrong, link to the data that in your opinion shows it was comprehensive and proven.

    Again you refuse to do so.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    There's no refusing, what I said and what occurred was independent of the approval process, the massive amount of real world data can't occur until post approval, any normal person would have realised that.

    Which means we're back to you showing how medicine is approved (noticing that you've ran away from the spin, ran away from what prevention means, ran away from what medicine failure means).

    Once you show you understand that, we can move onto the criteria for the SARS-COV2 vaccine approval as per the EMA ruling (again, don't run ahead or you'll undoubtedly look stupid).



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    There's no refusing, what I said and what occurred was independent of the approval process, the massive amount of real world data can't occur until post approval, any normal person would have realised that.

    Erm no, that's not what you said. Not even close.

    I posted this:

    If the scientists/approvers or yourself or whoever else is currently saying the vaccines were approved to reduce the severity of symptomatic disease rather than to prevent symptomatic disease then yes I am calling them liars.

    I am confident in doing this because the regulatory approval reports published at time of approval showed there was insufficient data to conclusively state the vaccines would be effective at preventing severity, no matter how much they might have hoped or expected that would be the case.

    Do you disagree?

    You quoted this and replied directly:

    I disagree that the approvers were liars, the data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials that were then repeated with real world data

    According to you, this "the data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials" prior to the massive amount of real world data.

    Can you link to this extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials that the vaccines were approved on? Or were you wrong?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    You are a liar that deliberately spreads lies and misinformation. That is an undeniable fact. If you doubt it then read your posts in this thread. Expect to be called out for it without falling back on childish tantrums and name calling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭snowcat


    There is a lot that can require someone to have their own perspective on and indeed deduce their own reasonings. This does not require them to produce proof or evidence or scientific papers to justify their opinion. As a lot of Irish people would refer to it..it as ''cop on". I bring it back to GMO foods as I usually do. There is no or reliable proof that you will keel over and die if you eat a GMO carrot. Me personally I wont bother (if i have the choice). I dont believe they do biodiversity, habitats, food quality or indeed our human race any favours. Yes it will feed the world but for how long? GMO drugs are sort of in the same realm. I see the science, I see the medical benefit in the short term. Do I think they will do long term harm. Yes probably



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Every reflex in your body is there for a reason. Of course coughing and sneezing is a fighting response to a viral infection. Same as the runs is trying to rid the body of an infection. Try masking that..

    Post edited by snowcat on


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    This is frustrating.

    Go and look up what the EMA approval process said.

    I am commenting on the great results from the trials which was then followed on by great real world data.

    However, my comments are not how the approval process works.

    You're spinning out all over the place, it's impossible to even know what you're claiming and why, you're piecing together multiple conversations at this point.

    Is your sole goal to try and catch me out on something? If so, that is weird, I stand by the approval process of the EMA.

    Again, back to basics, how are medicines approved? For the umpteenth time of asking, otherwise we'll just assume you don't have a clue (well everyone is doing that already) and answer accordingly. If you then look it up in a document somewhere, that's the definition we will go with, that's what google is for, this is a discussion on vaccines safety and you are utterly failing at making any coherent point about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Assume you wear clothes when it's cold, or just in general (never know about the second)...

    Coughing and sneezing is one of the ways a virus uses to spread taking advantage of human evolution, even a child knows to cover their mouth when coughing and sneezing, a mask just does it more effectively.

    (every real scientist knows that)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭hometruths


    This is frustrating.

    I can see how it might be frustrating to ask to link to data you claimed existed but in fact doesn't exist.

    It is clear that you are totally unable to either cite a source for the claim "the data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials" or admit you were wrong.

    Quite why you find it so difficult to say "Yep I get it, I was mistaken, the data on severity was only sufficient after the trial" is the more interesting question, as far as I am concerned. Why is this such a big deal for you?

    Go and look up what the EMA approval process said.

    I have already looked it up and cited it earlier in the thread. You told me I just didn't understand it. Here are the highlights on the subject of severe disease:

    Pfizer

    Based on the available limited data, no reliable conclusion on the efficacy of the vaccine against severe COVID-19 can be drawn from 7 days after the second dose (secondary endpoint).

    Moderna

    From the experience with other vaccines it is expected that prevention of severe COVID-19 will be achieved by preventing COVID-19 overall.


    The case-driven readout and high VE translates into limited case numbers at present and resulting limited precision for estimating VE in several substrata including elderly, people with comorbidities and efficacy against severe COVID-19.

    AstraZeneca

    Although encouraging trends were observed, reliable efficacy estimates against severe COVID-19 and hospitalisation caused by COVID-19 could not be established due to the lack of a sufficient number of cases within the clinical studies. From the experience with other vaccines it is expected that prevention of severe COVID-19 will be achieved by preventing COVID-19 overall.

    Janssen

    Whether efficacy is higher against severe cases vs. against mild/moderate symptomatic cases is not confirmed yet, but there is a trend it that direction. 

    What I really don't understand is how you have managed to interpret this as "the data on severity was extremely comprehensive and proven in massive trials".



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    As I've said, I didn't think I needed to mention it was just COVID related....not for a moment did I think there was some all Viruses smoking gun, your misrepresenting me with that claim.

    I'd take a bullet before the boat, not all of us made of straw.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol this waffle has nothing to do with my post.


    If you guys don't have evidence to back up you opinions, then your opinions aren't very solid or convincing.


    You guys are claiming that the vaccines are killing thousands of people through heart issues. You lot are claiming that the vaccines are secretly behind SADS and SIDS.

    Claiming this shite shows the exact opposite of copping on.



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