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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 53,758 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    I feel sorry for the NI, what an awful political situation up there.

    No stormont, NI voters voted for parties that want to keep the NI protocol but yet the UK government only care about the Unionist

    DUP holding everyone to ransom, when the NI is craving for some support for cost of living and the broken health care, the DUP just care about themselves.

    Tomorrow we'll have that nasty piece of work Liz Truss introducing legislation that will break international law. I hope the EU come down so f-ing hard on this, take them to court and start a trade war

    Hopefully Biden comes down hard on this too



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The UK Government couldn't give a toss about the Unionists and if only the DUP el al could figure that out we'd all be in a better place.

    But they are blinded by their utter hatred for anything that associates NI with the rest of Ireland and as such will continue to kick themselves in the balls to prevent any hint of détente between North and South.

    They are "useful idiots" for Johnson (which is saying something given the stupendously idiotic behaviour of his entire Government) and are being used as a deflection from all of the other crap that is going on.

    Johnson, Truss et al will do absolutely nothing substantive and will continue to sabre rattle and bluster periodically whenever they feel they need a distraction from how horrendously Brexit is actually going - Except in NI where the Protocol is actually preventing the worst of the impacts from taking effect.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,729 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If there's another 6 months of this, then a rerun of the Executive election, you'd have to wonder at what point does the cautious unionist stop voting DUP out of (reasonable) fear of SF getting in, and give Alliance the nod. Or indeed, SF: it's a It's very possible that this discussion is academic, it's a huge reach but if SF keep talking about what's best for the North, the immediacy of problems needing resolution today, why wouldn't they swing a handful of wavering unionists? Assuming the paranoia over the Protocol isn't percolating into these constituents,mind you.

    I never thought I'd say it but Mary Lou,speaking after her meet with Boris Johnson sounded like a woman who wants to get work done, with mature irritation towards the spoofery of a minority interest. I was impressed with her language and demeanor. They're playing this crisis well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Finally, a journalist starts to ask some pointed questions to Johnson. If the deal is so terrible, surely whomever signed it is at fault!


    But another point that is going almost entirely unquestioned. GB to NI trade is small compared to the UK economy as a whole. If the Government are claiming that any checks at all in the Irish sea is having a massive negative effect on trade, why isn't anyone asking what the expected impact of checks across the entire UK to importers and exporters will be.

    The fact that anybody is still actually listening to any of this Brexit BS is so frustrating. People complain about politicians, but when they continue to allow those politicians to get away with such nonsense then its not surprising that the same politicians will treat the public as fools



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,943 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Yes we agreed to it but we didn't expect them to actually carry out what was in the agreement. How do you even discuss anything with someone as stupid as that?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's baffling.

    I'm reading a history of Irish nationalism at the moment and the drop in quality in Unionist politicians is cataclysmic for Unionism. The likes of Carson and Craig were happy to use Westminster but keep it at a distance. Any time London got concerned about the treatment of Nationalists, they'd threaten to shut down the government in Northern Ireland.

    The GFA was signed in 1998. Anyone born then has reached adulthood during this time of unparalleled peace in the history of Northern Ireland. They've also seen the DUP do nothing but try to destroy it for reasons they can't relate to. They care a lot less about religion and arguments about saving Ulster from sodomy are barbaric to them. Were I living in NI, I'd be an Alliance voter.

    They've done nothing to create a future for Unionism. We're seeing its final phase, its death throes. Younger people in NI are seeing things like marriage equality and bodily autonomy rights being rolled out across the border as well as in mainland Britain. Amidst global talk of things like climate change, the DUP squandered over a billion pounds on a broken renewables initiative and just carried on as if nothing ever happened.

    The truly maddening thing is that even after pushing Brexit, they willingly squandered opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to protect NI's future and begin to build a new narrative for Unionism. Theresa May's deal would have prevented all of this and they had three chances to vote for it. They could have championed themselves as NI's economic guardians, kept their stranglehold on the assembly and pushed Sinn Fein onto the backfoot. Instead, they took a bung.

    Before much longer, the Belfast Agreement will be 30 years old. The DUP's demographic is dying off. Fewer and fewer people will remember the worst of the troubles. I asked a family member once what Unionism had accomplished in a century. His answer was keeping out Sinn Fein. That was it.

    If Michelle O'Neil starts coming out with language along the lines of getting the border done for good, I think that'll be it for Unionism.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Oh, he isn't stupid. That is just the cover. He is lying, lazy, uninterested and doesn't have any actual ideaoligy. But he isn't stupid.

    They knew exact.y what they were doing when they signed the deal. The signed it simply to win an election (I know technically the Election was before but the deal was sold as the key reason to vote for the Tories). Remember that they argued a Labour government would mean more negotiations, while Johnson had the 'oven ready deal'.

    They knew, and we know because they told us, that they never had any intention of sticking to the deal. They saw the deal as just a point in time, get the deal, win the election, then worry about what happens next.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Panrich


    The actual stupidity of their position is what baffles me. The protocol gives NI a foot in both camps and a competitive advantage compared to other regions of the UK as it still has full and free access to the EU single market.

    The DUP could be pointing to all the advantages of this arrangement and the fact that a United Ireland would see this advantage that straddles two customs areas disappear overnight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Why waste a good talking point to use in the inevitable border poll debates?

    A lot of the DUP's actions seem to be done with them accepting that the border poll will come and that throwing as many spanners into the workings of northern Ireland now delays any actual work towards the border poll and makes the actual poll just generally more difficult.


    The more awkward position northern ireland is in economically between the two states and disfunctional its own executive is, the more likely a border poll will fail.


    Much like how they are now championing the good friday agreement against the protocol when they were voting against it originally. Expect to see the DUP at some potential border poll claiming that voting in favour of the border poll would see an end to the protocol and "gee" hasnt the protocol been great for the economy. We dont want to ruin that right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    The more awkward position northern ireland is in economically between the two states and disfunctional its own executive is, the more likely a border poll will fail.

    I don't know about that. Surely a functioning, well-run NI (bear with me here) would give many nationalist-leaning voters something to think about long and hard before taking a leap into the unknown?

    As things stand, the DUP are arguably doing SF's work for them. "NI is a basket case and has been for 100 years and always will be if you let it continue to exist"

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think a lot of people in a slightly dystopian future of infinitely tedious rowing over the protocol would be very responsive to a border poll which might permanently settle the whole issue.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    So the UK will legislate to unilaterally change the NIP.

    "Liz Truss has "invited" @MarosSefcovic to London for a Joint Committee meeting soon to discuss this "new" Protocol"


    We will have to see what the legislation is and then if it gets through parliament and the HoL as well. Joke of a government who had their own impact assessments that predicted the current checks and still they went ahead.


    In before Kermit, there is no need to act rash now. Just have discussions with the UK and let them know what will happen if they continue this course and leave it to them to destroy their reputation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Just listening to debate about the new legislation and it is delusion upon delusion. We are back to alternative solutions again, or how the elections in NI showed a majority of unionists being against it. Or how Johnson is being liberal with the truth when he says all parties aren't happy with the NIP.


    Yes, all parties are against it, but not for the same reasons. The DUP, UUP and TUV are against it because it creates a border between it and the UK as intended. The others are against it because it is stopping them from forming a government. So yes they are all against it at the moment but there will not be a solution that will satisfy everyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The others are not "against it" in any shape or form.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Does the UUP actually oppose the protocol in the same vein as the DUP and TUV?

    I disagree with your second paragraph. It's the Unionists who are preventing the formation of a government, not the protocol. The DUP agitated for Brexit, scuppered every attempt at a deal and are now trying to destroy the protocol.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭Enzokk



    Clumsy wording from me, they may not be against it but none of them would say it works perfectly. Johnson is using weasel words to turn a nuanced position into a black and white one, just like the Brexit referendum. As I mentioned in my post its not that most parties are against the NIP in NI, but they are in favour of getting it to work better. Johnson is turning that around to being against the NIP in total.


    One more tweet, EU has responded,





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yep. As surely as night follows day, the EU makes clear what it will do and the UK backs down.

    Any day now...

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Hopefully I have explained myself better on what I meant with the second paragraph in my post above. As for the DUP, I don't think anyone is under the impression that they are looking to form a government in NI. They will use any excuse to collapse Stormont and at the moment it is the NIP that helps them delay making a SF First Minister. If the NIP is solved tomorrow I am under no illusion that Stormont will be up and running the day after as the DUP will find another reason to not form a government.


    We are well aware of their crazy Brexit stance. It was never going to work unless Brexit would work and there was no way Brexit was ever going to be a success.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Any solution to the alleged problems with the protocol will be met with more "problems" by the DUP. They don't care about making Brexit work. They care about suppressing the nationalist surge that they created.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    What have SF, SDLP or Alliance said about elements not working ?

    Which things do they want changed or think could work better ?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    My understanding is that the protocol contains a framework for adjustments that can be made via negotiation and agreement on things like medicines, some foods and such. I think the moderates such as the Alliance would like fewer checks.

    The DUP, unsurprisingly object to its very existence and are disingenuously couching their objection in moderate language.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,729 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I don't think they have elaborated but I do believe the Alliance spoke of "evolving" the protocol, or something to that effect. salonfire shares an article to that effect, in an attempt to prove(!) the Alliance didn't support it at all. Now, pragmatically they support it today, in that they want the Executive up and running and democracy returned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,825 ✭✭✭Patser


    EU - Here's our proposals and details of our compromises, we're willing to talk, let's not be hasty


    Britain - We're going to act alone, soon, promise, in ways that are definitely legal, we promise you and will show you then, you know when we actually say what our ideas are, but we hold all the cards!!!!.......... now please meet us to help sort this out before, you know, we put our cards on the table



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    If the DUP refused to go into government, a responsible british government would look and say, as stormont cant function, then it is time to look at the option of a border poll, and initiate, not an actual border poll, but a forum to look at re-unifcation and what it would look like in preperation for a border poll.


    That would frighten the DUP, if they cant form a government in stormont according to the GFA, then use the articles of the GFA to look at alternative governance in NI, and that should include unification.


    Then again, thats what a responsible government would do, not a tory one.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Talk of a border poll potentially will just unnerve moderate unionists and encourage them to align with the DUP and therefore move everyone back a step.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Northern Ireland is such a confounding factor in British politics. People have no interest in it and yet it could derail Johnson at the next election in conjunction with partygate and the PPE scandal.

    Brexit is supposed to be done. Not only has he resurrected it but he's dragged up the same silly arguments about them needing us more than vice-vearsa, the UK holding all the cards and so on...

    I actually can envisage a scenario where Brandon Lewis and the Tories just decide to call time on NI and opt for a border poll if it becomes toxic enough. The DUP are far, far to the right of virtually everyone else. There is no gain for the Conservatives in going back to bed with them.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭yagan


    Truss's feint is essentially the evocation of an alternative Brexit deal for their alternative reality where the world revolves around its needs.

    In the real world UK purchasing power continues to decline and they haven't even instigated a import inspection regime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭Enzokk



    As others have noted, its not that they were saying it wasn't working. Its nuanced, nobody has said it is perfect so they have all done the politician thing to say that the protocol is here to stay so we have to work to make it better. Johnson is turning that around to mean they are all against it. See quote below as an example for SF position,


    "Mr Murphy said Stormont’s first opportunity in a long time for a three-year budget has been lost, with all departments currently operating on a care and maintenance basis.

    “If people are going to continue to hang out over the protocol, there won’t be an Executive in place and what we will have is a treading water approach in terms of budgetary spend over the next number of months at least and that essentially loses us one year out of the three-year budget,” he said.

    “What we have to do is take the ideology out of the negotiations and get into the pragmatic dealing of the solutions through the discussions through the British government and the EU, and some of that has already materialised in terms of medicines and other matters.

    “An absence of an Executive here will not have any impact on those discussions.”"


    See the bolded part, talking about making it better and finding solutions. Same as the EU, lets discuss making it better. Not rip it up and start again which is the DUP stance, followed closely by some UK politicians and then the UK government just a little behind them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,442 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So after all the build up, basically Truss announced today they they will be bringing legislation to the house. They don't have it ready, and even when they bring it it them needs to get past the HoC, likely, and then the HoL, unlikely. Of course the HoL can't stop it completely, but it can be delayed and we are looking at months if not a year.

    What do they plan to do in the meantime? The DUP have said that words aren't enough, they want the legislation enacted, so that is the Assembly ruled out for months.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    My understanding is Alliance wanted more that the UK makes more progressive deals with the EU as a whole which would by extension improve things for northern Ireland (essentially the original intention of the protocol) If the UK agreed for parity on foods with the EU or signed up to the pet passport scheme or numerous other smaller policies that the EU basically offered the UK and many other non EU sates already sign up to, then it will naturally improve things for northern ireland.


    Essentially they are rightly saying that the UK and EU need to get back on the wider negotiation table and it will naturally improve things with the protocol



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