Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058202#Comment_119058202

A man who's career involves repeatedly going round in circles, with the odd car crash thrown in - he's well positioned to speak on brexit!

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058162#Comment_119058162

Yes Treaties are broken all the time by countries who depending on the gravity of the situation are then shunned by the rest of the international community. You break a treaty with a small African nation and unfortunately the rest of the world might just look on disapprovingly. You break atreaty with the largest trading bloc in the world and theres gonna be some serious consequences like nobody will trust you again meaning all future treaties will be far harder to get a good deal on and likely have pretty draconian clauses in the case of you breaking them.

Also as many have pointed out theres no treaty to limit NATO expansion all assurances were made orally. Also not sure if Russia is really the country you want to use as a comparison for the UK.

Finally Ireland broke no Treaty, we were granted legislative independence under the Statue of Westminster in 1931 allowing us to amend out constituation and move from the Irish Free State to Eire and then in 1949 the british Government passed the Ireland act recognising we were no longer part of "his majestys dominions".

salonfire

Is it possible that the UK could come up with a proposal that eliminates checks to goods destined for Northern Ireland, yet still protect the integrity of the single market? Maybe some type of trusted trader scheme or stiff penalties for anyone supplying goods that are eventually found in the EU?

If the UK do unilaterally change the protocol, does that mean that Northern Ireland is taken outside of the Customs Union by default? Since there is no longer a bilateral legal framework in place? What a disaster for the North if that were to happen.. custom posts around the land border and losing access to the SM. Look at how many times milk crosses the border for example. Who's to say that Republicans won't rise up with violence if they are removed from the SM...

Interesting week ahead!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059460#Comment_119059460

In what way was he less positioned than Farage when he started appearing.

QT has been stooping to clickbait guests for a while now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059602#Comment_119059602

The mythical Smart Border.

It doesn't exist anywhere else, catching bits that eventually make it in is wide open to abuse, how are non trusted traders processed, the UK are incapable of conducting their own border controls nevermind others virtual ones.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059638#Comment_119059638

But why is Johnson persistesting with this path? They don't want a trade war with the EU or broken US relations. He doesn't give a toss about the DUP or the North in general. Why go to such extremes when it can only mean bad things for the UK. Why is Northern Ireland suddenly so important to the Tories?

Baffling and worrying times.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059649#Comment_119059649

It never was and it never will be; what's important to Boris is the fact he can given an external enemy (EU) to his party and keep that in the headlines. This ensures the voters will remember what a strong alpha male he is standing up to evil EU "got Brexit done" and "UK are now being bullied because EU refuse to change".

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059649#Comment_119059649

Because, bluntly, Johnson is a liar and charlatan whose tactic is to just endlessly operate in campaign mode and antagonise rather than, you know, actually govern and implement the "oven ready" deal he ushered in in the first place. Brexit is a busted flush but they'll avoid properly implementing it as long as possible. Maybe the plan is to have a Taiwan situation where everybody just agrees not to look too hard at the details. Don't ask, don't tell.

So while the papers talk of Protocols and EU intransigence, they're not talking about the internal controversies, cost of living shames, and other issues things the Tories should be hung out for. I do think it's as simple as that. If the EU threaten sanctions then I'm sure Johnson will pivot again, or use the tabloid mouthpieces to stir up more factionalism. The guy is a spoofer and the DUP idiots for going along with it all. Again. All because of fear of a North leaning towards Dundalk instead of Durham.

wexfordman2

And because, NI is doing quite well out of the protocol, and is at the moment the best performing part of the UK, exposing Johnson brexit in GB as a failure!

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059821#Comment_119059821

Exactly. A prosperous North shows Brexit as folly. If leaks have shown Tories to be openly scoffing at Partygate and lockdowns, imagine what they must say about the DUP in private. Good little loyalists willing to shoot themselves in the face for the Union. Ashamed to be even called Irish, and would self-destruct their own economy rather than given an inch towards all island harmony.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059821#Comment_119059821

I think the bigger plan is that every time Johnson threatens the protocol, it severely discourages investment in NI. He doesn't even have to do anything to try and hold NI back.

wexfordman2

If that's what he's doing, they are ven more devious shower of c you next Tuesdays than I had thought them to be

ath262

The 'Charm offensive' by Frost, Burns et al in the US has not gone well - Frost suggested that Biden and the US administration did not grasp the situation in Northern Ireland and details of the Protocol... think he might have that idea backwards!!

Following up on the recent letter to Ms. Truss there's a congressional Delegation on it way this week from the US to UK, including the Chairman of the Ways and Means commitee

David Frost does Britain no favours in its US charm offensive on Brexit (Irish Times €)

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059881#Comment_119059881

And the DUP go along with it. For the definition of useful idiot they could use their logo

timetogo1

Brexit Republic is back on the podcasts. Informative as usual.

He made a good point. When the EU compromises the UK banks the compromise and then moves onto another issue and moans as if the EU will do nothing. So much for taking back control.

I got that impression too. No matter what the EU seems to do the UK moans and blames the EU. It must be a nightmare negotiating with that. When ever you make any progress they just move the end goal further away.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119060223#Comment_119060223

Tbf, what other option do they have? Like the Tories, they cannot stand on their record so need an enemy to focus attention on.

Without this what do they offer to a new NI? Not much, so they need to have a 'war'.

The strange thing is many people simply accept that its the EU they are fighting against, for the sake of the Union. When in reality it is the UK government and voters they are fighting against as they are in favour of Brexit and agreed to this deal.

pixelburp

Johnson meeting NI leaders about reforming the Protocol, rather than scrapping it. Who knows what that means, or how long that position will last.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/14/boris-johnson-backs-away-from-northern-ireland-protocol-threat-ahead-of-talks

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065073#Comment_119065073

He's hitting the trifecta of "Cross community support, no hard border on the island of Ireland and no border in the sea" as his goal yet as always give zero answers to how to birth this unicorn...

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065075#Comment_119065075

The comment that the leaders will receive "tough" talking must enrage Long or O'Neill, especially given the former really gave the DUP both barrels this week, for taking a wage while scuttling the Executive. As you say, this is empty rhetoric from Johnson; what possible amendments could be done?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058162#Comment_119058162

The country can break a Treaty alright ............ but they can't expect just to break bits of the Treaty that they don't like while still having the other bits remain

If the UK had an agreement with India so that it could send them X amount of trade tariff free per year in return for 10,000 visas, you couldn't expect the Indians to continue letting them send that trade in tariff free if, the day after signing, the UK decided "actually we don't want to give out the visas so let's scrap that part but keep the bit we like. All good India - yeah?"

Ireland broke an agreement to pay land annuities to the UK government which resulted in a a good chunk of a decade or so of economic war.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118981076#Comment_118981076

So Charles speech contained nothing about the protocol and Boris is backing down from the recent threats as literally everyone else but you knew he would.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/14/boris-johnson-backs-away-from-northern-ireland-protocol-threat-ahead-of-talks

Sam Russell

'Ireland broke an agreement to pay land annuities to the UK government which resulted in a a good chunk of a decade or so of economic war.'

That cost Ireland dear due to the 'economic war' that caused GB to stop buying Irish beef among other things. As a consequence, our economy suffered desperately and beef production for export was basically stopped.

However, when war started in 1939, GB looked for the beef again, but there wasn't any. So an economic war bit them hard when suddenly they needed the very thing they chose to embargo.

I suspect that if there was a United Ireland, many aspects of the divorce deal would contain similar poison pills that will bite one side or the other, depending on the thoroughness of the negotiations, and the financial arrangements that are agreed, and the relative strengths of each side. By which I mean the eagerness of the GB side to rid themselves of their financial burden that is NI, and the delight the Irish side would have of taking on the Unionists as fellow countrymen and all that would entail.

I think the Windrush generation would have a lot to say about answering the call from Britain to help provide much needed manpower after the war to help rebuild the shattered economy.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065209#Comment_119065209

We both know the user will be back in a few months, making another claim that the Protocol is about to die. It's bad form to play the man not the ball, but this is Kermit's modus operandi: parachute into the thread, make bold.claims the Protocol is to be dropped and Ireland kicked out of the SM. When neither come to pass, away they go for another month or two. Rinse and repeat. Their obvious leering lust for an Irish-exit from the EU clouding anything resembling judgement.

Danzy

I think while London will push through and the EU will fold. It will Likely mean Britain with unfettered access to the EU single market than us being divided out.

Most of Europe isn't plussed either way and Johnson will have taken encouragement from recent statements.

America may decide things though.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065278#Comment_119065278

No, it won't. It means London is playing the tired old dismantle the protocol card before doing another climbdown. As usual, the narrative of the EU screwing Ireland over any day now for six years proves false.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065278#Comment_119065278

But, you've lied on other threads. Why should we believe you now? Remember your quote about Ta-Nehisi Coates that you made up? There's prior art with you.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065227#Comment_119065227

Hang on. Are the defenders of Brexit really so desperate that they're invoking a treaty from a century ago?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065442#Comment_119065442

Would you be even surprised if they had? At this rate I await somebody, straight faced, arguing for a return to the Gold Standard.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065463#Comment_119065463

In hindsight, no. I suppose it's something different from the standard EU betrayal dead horse they've been flogging for over half a decade.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065442#Comment_119065442

And an agreement where the victim were paying reparations to the colonial oppressor at that. Not really the same as the willingly signed Brexit agreement.