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Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure leaning into the hysteria is the smart move.

    Moving on, still waiting for you to share the city name that you like to hold up as a shining example. Or a similar one in the same country if you want.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I will not share the city name as it is an unexceptional German city and I don#t want the tag team abuse which is part and parcel of the groupthink on this forum. If you visit cities like Baden-Baden or Wiesbaden or Karlsruhe or Nürnberg or Freiberg you'll see proper transportation solutions implemented intelligently. It would be a good change from visiting Twitter feeds of the self-annointed car hating Swamis who you venerate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    I spent a summer in Freiburg am Brisgau in 1998, even then it was beyond any Irish City that exists today.

    Its probably around size of Cork City.

    Was excellent for bikes and trams back then, its probably even far better today.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thats fine, thank you for finally answering.

    I took a cursory look over a few of those places and its pretty clear that what they have now has been developed over the last 50-100 years, obviously with a large amount during post war as part of reconstruction projects. In addition, its also pretty obvious that they have introduced all or most of what many posters here have been advocating for. That you are living in a place that has done a lot of things to induce modal shift, and post many times about how great it is and how you have many options to get around, its difficult to square that circle with your apparent disdain for introducing these measures in other places. Honestly struggling to see how you make that make sense.

    Lets take a brief look at one of your examples, Karlsruhe. A city with a population of 300+k. Keep Dublin, with a population of 1.3 mil, in mind for comparison to see how far Ireland is behind.

    Tram Network

    Has 9 tram lines. Network started in 1897. Between buses and trams the PT network carries over 100 million passengers a year.

    Bus Network

    Strangely difficult to find much info on this at a network level outside of the passenger number I mentioned above.

    Bike Infrastructure

    A network of connected bike infrastructure, granted a lot of it is just paint and unprotected, but a connected network all the same.


    Great bike parking facilities, including the new bike parking facility at the main train station which they created by removing car parking. It now holds 600 bikes


    Driving

    Emissions based restrictions cover a large area

    Its got a massively successful car sharing scheme in operation

    Walking

    Has a fairly large area of pedestrian only streets




  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Sounds like hell. How are the people of Karlsruhe meant to pick up a second hand dishwasher with all that??? It is a fate worse than death.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    sounds like the sort of thing some people in here might be interested in:





  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sounds wonderful. Seriously how many people buy 2nd hand dishwashers.

    and have a car big enough to fit one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,792 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Imagine a person using a wheelchair, walking frame, a stick or a blind person ?….be no fun trying to access the roadway to walk or manoeuvre oneself in a chair from a physical point of view and also with vehicles passing. .. of course we know in Ireland the likes of the council, Gardai will kowtow to the business interests of individuals as opposed to the safety interests of rank and file public… can’t be inconveniencing business people don’t ya know.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]



    Are you seriously trying to claim that the suggestions from the usual suspects here on thread are trying to mimic what has been done and will be done in Karlsruhe?

    Have you ever been to Karlsruhe. Do you know that there is a tunnel underneath it for cars and more tunnels are coming. Baden-Baden has similar tunnels and you can travel most of the length of the city only needing to emerge at street level close to your destination. Those Cities are anything but anti-car in that they invest to accommodate them alongside other legitimate methods of transport.

    Here is a multibillion project in Karlsruhe that you do not seem to be aware of and will blow your mind: https://bnn.de/karlsruhe/karlsruhe-stadt/kombiloesung-karlsruhe-alle-infos-u-bahn-strassenbahn-autotunnel-kosten-fertigstellung

    That is proper investment which is done because stealing road space from existing commuters doesn't work even though some overbearing posters here have tried to coerce me in to agreeing that space must be taken away from cars to achieve "their" dreams.

    There are pages and pages of "ban cars", "restrict cars", "block cars" vendettas on this thread. Getting around Karlsruhe on my visits to the City in a car has been a pleasure.

    It is only one page since a Poster said of cars "they should be demonised, they've ruined cities". Why wasn't that unarguably extreme view "moderated".

    Also, of all the Cities I mentioned Karlsruhe was the one planned from the time of horse and carriage with very wide thoroughfares.

    I'm the one who had to educate these posters as to the presence of Umweltzones but those tinpots are still going on about polluting cars.

    The ignorance of posters on this thread is on another level and only matched by their arrogance, certain that they "know better" and happy to inflict misery on a commuting public with their half-baked ideas. They know nothing of properly operated communal car services or shared road spaces for strassenbahn and cars or how signalling/prioritization of traffic works in practice or even how the traffic lights at intersections work to maximise throughput. They don't know that most bicycle lanes are shared with pedestrians or that cars can turn left so long as no pedestrians are crossing.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    My co-workers who live in Karlsruhe would be mostly using their company cars to pick up bulky items. My Manager who lives in Karlsruhe has a capacious Renault Grand Scenic and for all the public transport options available to him continues to drive to work when not working from home.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Happy to take a look at that tunnel project, however, you're still continuing to deal in slinging mud and fud so to be honest, as you've shown no interest in an adult discussion I'll not be engaging with you further.

    Take care

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Indeed. I attempted to tease out their position/view or what, specifically, they are actually proposing to allow people to commute around a heavily congested city like Dublin, but asking for a specific answer is apparently "hectoring".

    Joining a DISCUSSION BOARD with no willingness to actually engage in discussion (which requires you to accept that others' opinions may not align but with the goal, presumably, of arguing a case), is weird. A more sensible option in that case would be standing on a street corner and shouting at the clouds.

    Their delusion that they are the only ones with experience of living in Mitteleuropa is also funny. I'm not sure how long haphaphap has been living abroad - I'm also an emmigrant but even before leaving it was obvious to me that this sort of "lecturing from abroad" just makes you look like a twat. Having said that, I believe that there are lots of important lessons to be learned by how things are done well in other countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Looking forward to a traffic free Capel st, it was great last year. It leaves great strand st with greately reduced traffic also. Great strand could do with some proper paving, wider footpaths and reduced parking, give the street a function other than a through route.

    Then this impacts the pedestrianisation of liffey st. The Arnotts crowd will be moaning that with liffey st and Capel st pedestrianised their only exit route is via jervis st or green street. Of course that's no reason to moan but be sure the journos will play the tune of the car parking association.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: @[Deleted User]

    It is not for a mod, in my opinion, to moderate views, no matter how extreme. Moderation is about keeping order, particularly those disruptive types at the back of the class.

    Outside of that, do not attack posters, and keep to the topic.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I have kept to the topic which is traffic management strategies in more enlightened countries w.r.t. the requirements of the travelling public.

    It isn't my fault that many here mis-diagnose the problem and propose innappropriate or counter-productive solutions based on their prejudices against private vehicles.

    For the last decade a very large brownfield quarter of the city I live in has been regenerated and private vehicular access rather than being restricted remains a component of the approach to transport and connectivity. That regeneration will continue for most of the next decade. Private Transport is certainly calmed through various strategies but isn't prohibited. People here forming their opinions from reading Twitter and Blogs seem to think that City Planners in Europe have turned their backs on cars. They haven't. It seems something has been lost in translation.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    for those (like me) who do not speak German - the german city of Hanover installed a bike lane on a street, and a resident sued because he claimed there was not enough room for car parking, and for the bikes. so the judge agreed with him - and as a result, the city removed the parking spaces



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    My last sentence in the last post was "It seems something has been lost in translation."

    Do you understand the implications of that ruling for future bikepaths; They won't be built as the obligations on the Local Authority to allocate space are too exacting. The paths must be broad enough to allow cyclists cycle side by side in both directions.

    For the street in question, Kleestraße, out of a combination of necessity and bloodymindedness the Local Authority removed the parking spaces. This isn't a win for cyclists as this was already a fahrradstrasse and only residents' vehicles, disabled drivers and delivery vehicles had access to the street. Residents of the street will now have to pay for parking elsewhere which is, if it is anything like my city, probably be around 80 to 100 euro per month.

    That is what is known as a pyrrhic victory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Why should people be able to store their property in public spaces for free?



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Is that the Strasse you really want to saunter down?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Who is forcing anyone to purchase or drive a car in Ireland?. It isn't like the U.S. where there aren't pavements or space for bicycles.

    I don't think your link actually hits home with anyone on this side of the Atlantic.

    ...although during the pandemic access to the local supermarket was only allowed with trolley and the cashier gave out to me when I turned up at checkout with three items in my hands.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    There isn't a connection between my contribution to the thread and your link to a tweet so I have no idea why you responded by quoting my comment. Whataboutery perhaps.

    pg 197 of the rules of the road pdf would indicate that the cyclists were not obeying the rules of the road and I'm sure another page in the same book will show the motorist was not obeying the rules of the road either through excessive use of their horn and failure to keep a safe distance.

    Perhaps you are trying to suggest such behaviour is condoned by other motorists and society in general. I don't know. I don't see the relevance of your comment which quotes mine.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it was just an amusing tweet highlighting the futility of using a vehicle far bigger than is necessary; i wouldn't read much more than that into it.

    the 'force' was probably just used in the context of the supermarket itself, to reach the analogous situation; rather than a comment that we need to do it with motorists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you're going to make allegations about law-breaking, you'd want to be very sure that you understand the difference between ROTR and traffic law.

    You asked a question about who is forcing anyone to purchase or drive a car. Perhaps it was rhetorical and you didn't want an answer, but here we are;

    Experiences like this are forcing people off bikes and into cars.





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  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    @AndrewJRenko; What allegation am I making? They openly admitted to cycling three abreast. I find it very hard to engage with you.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think the comment by the 7 year old - 'What is she complaining about - she said we were in the middle of the road, well so was she!'

    I think that summarises the entitled attitude of drivers. I driver in the middle of the road has more rights that three children in the middle of the road.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    failure to make good progress at the inconvenience of other road users would be marked down in a driving test. Not cycling more than two abreast is noted in the rules of the road and I'd speculate it is mentioned in the rules of the road for similar reasons; consideration for other road users.

    I would suggest that there is enough blame to go around for all the parties involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    She didn't 'openly admit' to anything. She said that was the allegation made by the aggressive, bullying driver, that they were cycling three abreast, but the mam didn't admit to anything. TBH, it is fairly unlikely that she would be three abreast in a cycle bus, far more likely that the adult was to the rear, shielding the children, and probably doing a good job at shielding, which is what irritated the bully behind the wheel. And three abreast is permitted while overtaking, btw.

    She's not driving though, she's cycling. She's making good progress at cycling speed (which is higher than average driving speed in much of the city). There is no law that requires cyclists to pull over for others. No-one else's journey is more important.

    That driver is presumably quite happy to sit for hours in traffic jams starting down the bumper of the car in front, but put them behind a cyclist for 10 or 20 seconds and WW3 breaks out, with talk of 'progress' and 'consideration'. Where's the consideration in driving round with four empty seats all day?



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    are you proffering this anecdote as justification to ban cars?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You seem to be the only one talking about banning cars here.

    I'm simply pointing that we have allowed a situation to develop where cars are the default option, even for short journeys where walking and cycling are very feasible options.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    are those bollards strong enough to rip the wheel off a land rover? or did that happen before it hit the bollard, i wonder?



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I'm the only one it appears who is explicitly stating the implicit implication of the agitation and advocacy on this sub-forum which is toward banning of cars or restriction of their use to the point where it becomes pointless to own one. The opinion is with a little bit of finessing the "problem" will resolve itself to the cyclists advantage.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    for the record I'm in favour of the introduction of thoughtfully placed bollards and guard rails to the benefit of all including commuters who would otherwise be inconvenienced by parents pulling in for "just a moment" while they drop off and collect their offspring. More of this!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    What's the latest fudge on the liffey cycle route? The temporary one is lethal in parts and lots of people are returning to work now, surely building a permanent route should have been well underway already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You're making a big leap from some slight restriction on cars in some areas for some periods to 'towards banning of cars'. We've had car dominated cities for too long now, and our health and our environment is harmed every day as a result. We need to do things a bit differently.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    After Galway City recently announced a hike in parking charges, DCC are following suit. Expect other councils to announce increases over the next few weeks

    Speaking about the hike in parking fees, Dublin City Council’s Parking Enforcement Officer, Dermot Stevenson, said: “The hourly parking charges are being increased to ensure that there is a suitable deterrent to long stay parking in the city and to encourage a high turnover of users of these parking spaces.


    “We also want to encourage sensible parking in the city as well as asking motorists to consider alternative transport methods other than the private car”.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    A big reduction in parking is needed, and there's no plan to tackle any multistorey.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    A big reduction in parking will send people to out of town retail parks. I'm all for the removal of on street parking, but mulitstory car parks are necessary for this to happen. You're never going to get a city center to be completely car free.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    how many people park on the street when doing their shopping in the city centre, compared to using a multi-storey?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's the plan, basically free up street space over time, which will be used to expand walking, cycling and PT infrastructure.

    There will always be a need for parking it just won't be on streets



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Tell that to cgcsb who seems to want all parking removed, including multistory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Sending cars out of the city to 'out of town retail parks' or indeed anywhere they want to go sounds fine to me. Liffey Valley and Blanch will start charging for parking soon.


    Multi storeys are not required in the city centre. They are there because of tax breaks gifted to them. We have 15 of them in the city centre. Complete overkill.


    We can have a near car free city centre, Oslo achieved this through removing all parking and all through routes.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the issue regarding multistorey parking is where some of it is located. To maintain access to it, you are prevented from addressing larger issues within the network.

    Personally I have no objection to multistorey parking but they do come with access issues when you consider how the network needs to be improved to increase capacity and safety issues for all modes of transport.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,166 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd never realised that there was a 'google maps for car parks'

    as an absolute baseline minimum, on street parking should cost equivalent or more than private parking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ARX


    "... and to encourage a high turnover of users of these parking spaces"

    So they want more motor traffic?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    Trinity Street is going all by itself to be replaced by a new office building.


    Application in to lop a couple of floors off Arnotts car park to build apartments above instead.

    Even the car park owners are starting to see there's no future in bringing cars into town.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Clarendon, Drury, Stephens Green and BTs need to go for a start in the short term. That whole area should be car free as a starting point. The other pains are arnotts, the ilac and the 2 on Jervis St.

    Not fussed about clearys or Christchurch.

    Fleet Street also needs goning.



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  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    One of the streets in my city directly adjacent and parallel to the old town removed a lane of traffic and replaced it with a cycle lane and a row of parking spaces about 500 metres long even though that street has about 4 multistorey parking houses on it or nearby. Removal of the traffic lane doesn't appear to impact my travel time on that particular route.

    If you discourage parking you rip the heart out of your urban centres as everyone will trek to the out of town shopping centres.

    What Dublin is doing is not an example of international best practice.



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