Cities around the world that are reducing car access

Larbre34

I don't envy DCC trying to find a balance with this stuff.

There's simply no way that non-hospitality businesses that have been mostly closed for 14 months and that are hanging on to solvency by a thread will tolerate wholesale closure of access to cars while they are looking to regain footfall. So the Council (while prone to errors like Strand Road) are doing their best to help everyone at once, while still under a level of restrictions.

And those €40 OTS fines? Litter.

cgcsb

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't envy DCC trying to find a balance with this stuff.

There's simply no way that non-hospitality businesses that have been mostly closed for 14 months and that are hanging on to solvency by a thread will tolerate wholesale closure of access to cars while they are looking to regain footfall. So the Council (while prone to errors like Strand Road) are doing their best to help everyone at once, while still under a level of restrictions.

And those €40 OTS fines? Litter.

The hospitality businesses are the ones looking for more pedestrian space. Cars don't bring football

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't envy DCC trying to find a balance with this stuff.

There's simply no way that non-hospitality businesses that have been mostly closed for 14 months and that are hanging on to solvency by a thread will tolerate wholesale closure of access to cars while they are looking to regain footfall. So the Council (while prone to errors like Strand Road) are doing their best to help everyone at once, while still under a level of restrictions.

And those €40 OTS fines? Litter.

After all these years, I still have yet to see hard evidence that allowing vehicular through-traffic increases shop footfall. Can you provide such?

Thelonious Monk

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't envy DCC trying to find a balance with this stuff.

There's simply no way that non-hospitality businesses that have been mostly closed for 14 months and that are hanging on to solvency by a thread will tolerate wholesale closure of access to cars while they are looking to regain footfall. So the Council (while prone to errors like Strand Road) are doing their best to help everyone at once, while still under a level of restrictions.

And those €40 OTS fines? Litter.

Who in their right mind needs something from Capel St or South William St and says you know what I'll drive directly outside the shop and park there to buy the goods.
Absolutely no one. I can't tell if you're a wind up or not.

AlmightyCushion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

After all these years, I still have yet to see hard evidence that allowing vehicular through-traffic increases shop footfall. Can you provide such?

Just look at Grafton Street and Henry Street. They're pedestrianised and they've been dead for years. No one uses the shops there... Oh wait.

donvito99

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Who in their right mind needs something from Capel St or South William St and says you know what I'll drive directly outside the shop and park there to buy the goods.
Absolutely no one. I can't tell if you're a wind up or not.

To be fair Capel St is one of the few remaining retail stretches in the city centre serving tradesmen/DIY and other non luxury household stuff.

Doesn't mean it needs to look like ****e with three lanes in parts and narrow footpaths throughout though.

Thelonious Monk

donvito99 wrote: »

To be fair Capel St is one of the few remaining retail stretches in the city centre serving tradesmen/DIY and other non luxury household stuff.

Doesn't mean it needs to look like ****e with three lanes in parts and narrow footpaths throughout though.

I know, but one of my neighbours owns the workwear place there and even he doesn't park on Capel St, he used to take the dart in for years

Peregrine

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I know, but one of my neighbours owns the workwear place there and even he doesn't park on Capel St, he used to take the dart in for years

I'd say a lot of the owners do though. I'd say owners cars made up a significant % of the cars parked there.

Anyway, the parking on Capel Street is going. The response yesterday ensured that at least. What's left is the through traffic and what to do with that.

What use is non-stop through traffic to the non-hospitality businesses on Capel Street? What do they get out of people coming from Parnell Street and the markets trundling past their shops in cars?

Effects

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Who in their right mind needs something from Capel St or South William St and says you know what I'll drive directly outside the shop and park there to buy the goods.
Absolutely no one. I can't tell if you're a wind up or not.

Me, I often have to do that. I'd rather not have the car with me, but sometimes it's a necessity.
But most of the time there's no parking on Capel St., so I resort to having to park close by.
I don't have to park right outside the shop, but it would be handy.
I'd much rather travel by bike though.

AndrewJRenko

Peregrine wrote: »

Yes but one of the reasons they're trialling this is to see if this results in more fines being issued through the time savings of fines vs clamping.

Clamping a car and waiting to remove it takes up the best part of half an hour. If they can fine 10-15 drivers in that time, that could result in an increase in enforcement coverage.

I don't think DCC even breaks even from clamping. The clamp and tow release fees also haven't been updated in a long time.

The €40 fine makes city parking a privilege for the wealthy. Clamping actually hurts people, by inconveniencing them, and towing hurts them more. They should really have penalty points on top of the fine to deter frequent offending.

Peregrine

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The €40 fine makes city parking a privilege for the wealthy. Clamping actually hurts people, by inconveniencing them, and towing hurts them more. They should really have penalty points on top of the fine to deter frequent offending.

I know but don't tell me. Tell minister@transport.gov.ie.

You can already incur 3 penalty points for dangerous parking but only AGS can issue them. Which they do sometimes but not often. If you get caught by parking wardens or clampers, it's a let off. That's a big discrepancy that needs to be fixed.

I think parking enforcement staff can see repeat offenders so can clamp or tow as necessary during the trial.

Ideally, I'd like to see penalty points for dangerous parking be the norm regardless of who issues it. The Department have said they would be open to reviewing the fines around illegal parking so get e-mailling.

Peregrine

Here's an example of what's possible when the Gardaí can be bothered. 72 x €60 fines and 3 penalty points in a row. It would take a clamper the entire day to clamp them all. To do it before most of them drive away would need so many clampers that their vans would probably end up causing an obstruction. And then you're left with 72 dangerously parked cars.

We're not going to fix our dangerous parking problem by clamping them all. Nor are we going to fix it with €40 bills/fines but it's worth seeing the pros and cons of it. Ultimately, legislative change is necessary.

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1327673306779095041?s=20

Seth Brundle

I take it that Paris does not have un Mannix...

https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/1391709598969733126

Shocking that the Parisiennes thought that unsafe cycling and e-scootering was a good thing over safe and efficient driving. I think you're able to see a cyclist kill someone at 0:39
I'd say that there is now zero trade being done there also!

MJohnston

Looks horrible — how are the hospitals ever meant to profit without all those lovely lung diseases??

Thelonious Monk

Yeah but the Mannix brigade will say that's because Paris has an a Metro and an amazing transport system. Often on twitter you see car-ists spouting the "Build a metro then we can pedestrianise!!!1", but I'd say it'd be hard to get these people onto a Metro even if there was a stop outside their house.

bk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but the Mannix brigade will say that's because Paris has an a Metro and an amazing transport system. Often on twitter you see car-ists spouting the "Build a metro then we can pedestrianise!!!1", but I'd say it'd be hard to get these people onto a Metro even if there was a stop outside their house.

Yep and once we actually build the Metro, they will just say, only pedestrianise once we have built another 10 lines.

Pete_Cavan

bk wrote: »

Yep and once we actually build the Metro, they will just say, only pedestrianise once we have built another 10 lines.

No if Metro is built, the car obsessed will be saying "ye got yer Metro, isn't that enough?". Simple them v us. They just lump everyone who doesn't drive everywhere in one homogeneous group with all the same needs. Except of course the elderly and disabled, they get paraded out in defence of maintaining the status quo, even if the status quo is generally problematic for these groups.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No if Metro is built, the car obsessed will be saying "ye got yer Metro, isn't that enough?". Simple them v us. They just lump everyone who doesn't drive everywhere in one homogeneous group with all the same needs. Except of course the elderly and disabled, they get paraded out in defence of maintaining the status quo, even if the status quo is generally problematic for these groups.

wheel chair users especially. Much of Dublin City Centre is virtually inaccessible to them but the motor lobby have nominated themselves their representatives.

Pete_Cavan

Fingal have put out a public consultation for the pedestrianisation of most of New Street, Malahide from June 2021;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/new-street-malahide-pedestrianisation

Will be interesting to really see how many are for and against it. Consultation only live until Friday week so get your spake in quick.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Fingal have put out a public consultation for the pedestrianisation of most of New Street, Malahide from June 2021;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/new-street-malahide-pedestrianisation

Will be interesting to really see how many are for and against it. Consultation only live until Friday week so get your spake in quick.

Can't believe people actually prefer it with cars. Some folks need adult supervision

Pete_Cavan

Similar planned for Swords and Skerries too aparently;

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1392051856159903744?s=20

Thelonious Monk

Why is it only affluent towns/suburbs that are getting these measures implemented?
I guess it's only rich places that have a restaurant/cafe/bar scene that would benefit from pedestrianisation, your typical working class suburb usually has a busy dual carriageway going through the centre, which is usually a chipper and a spar and maybe a sh*thole of a pub, it seems in Dublin only really well off areas have any kind of a village centre worth talking about.
The only place I can think of anywhere near me is Clontarf Vernon Ave at the sea end, lots of places to eat, but I doubt they'd make any changes there as the SUV brigade would go nuts.

But the divide between richer and less well off areas is glaring when you look at these plans, also they're basically doing nothing for the northside of the city centre.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Similar planned for Swords and Skerries too aparently;

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1392051856159903744?s=20

Long overdue at skerries Harbour. Parking both sides 2 lanes of traffic and almost no footpath

cgcsb

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why is it only affluent towns/suburbs that are getting these measures implemented?
I guess it's only rich places that have a restaurant/cafe/bar scene that would benefit from pedestrianisation, your typical working class suburb usually has a busy dual carriageway going through the centre, which is usually a chipper and a spar and maybe a sh*thole of a pub, it seems in Dublin only really well off areas have any kind of a village centre worth talking about.
The only place I can think of anywhere near me is Clontarf Vernon Ave at the sea end, lots of places to eat, but I doubt they'd make any changes there as the SUV brigade would go nuts.

But the divide between richer and less well off areas is glaring when you look at these plans, also they're basically doing nothing for the northside of the city centre.

Tend to agree but you'd also have solidarity complaining about gentrification if sumnerhill was pedestrianised.

Also most of the main thoroughfares in poorer areas are part of core bus corridors for busconnects.

Something drastic needs to be done with finglas Village. It needs to be walkable.

There

Pete_Cavan

The main goal of these projects is to facilitate outdoor dining. To justify the cost of the changes at any location, there needs to be a few dine in restaurants in close proximity, as well as the space available to be converted.

Ben D Bus

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why is it only affluent towns/suburbs that are getting these measures implemented?
I guess it's only rich places that have a restaurant/cafe/bar scene that would benefit from pedestrianisation, your typical working class suburb usually has a busy dual carriageway going through the centre, which is usually a chipper and a spar and maybe a sh*thole of a pub, it seems in Dublin only really well off areas have any kind of a village centre worth talking about.
The only place I can think of anywhere near me is Clontarf Vernon Ave at the sea end, lots of places to eat, but I doubt they'd make any changes there as the SUV brigade would go nuts.

But the divide between richer and less well off areas is glaring when you look at these plans, also they're basically doing nothing for the northside of the city centre.

Same with Ballyfermot. Nothing on the main strip I'd want to sit outside or inside anyway. The only nice place is Koffee & Kale but that's up by the Civic Centre and set well back from the road. Of course the entire front is given over to parking apart from a narrow path. It does seem that it's even more important in working class areas to be seen in a fancy car than it is in the more affluent suburbs. I guess the less you have the more important it is to show off how much you spend

Thelonious Monk

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Same with Ballyfermot. Nothing on the main strip I'd want to sit outside or inside anyway. The only nice place is Koffee & Kale but that's up by the Civic Centre and set well back from the road. Of course the entire front is given over to parking apart from a narrow path. It does seem that it's even more important in working class areas to be seen in a fancy car than it is in the more affluent suburbs. I guess the less you have the more important it is to show off how much you spend

It just goes to show how extremely poorly most of Dublin was designed, with little or no regard for anything but cars when they started to upgrade roads. Where I live everyone seems to drive everywhere and it's just getting worse, but sprawling estates encourage people to use their cars all the time. Not sure how we'll ever turn it around.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It just goes to show how extremely poorly most of Dublin was designed, with little or no regard for anything but cars when they started to upgrade roads. Where I live everyone seems to drive everywhere and it's just getting worse, but sprawling estates encourage people to use their cars all the time. Not sure how we'll ever turn it around.

I dont know that it can be turned around. it's too late. The sprawl is there, with no mass transit infrastructure to support it.

I was hoping that higher levels of partial working from home and some exodus to rural areas would reduce the volume of cars, but seems that that will be offset by lower bus usage. Traffic seems worse than before Covid and most people arent even at work yet.

Tinkering around the edges (bike lane here, bus corridor there) wont work....it just frustrates everyone. Years of evidence that it doesn't work. The only solution I can see is a 'big bang' approach. Ban private cars from the city almost entirely and massively increase bus routes and bus volumes - i mean like double / triple the numbers. Without cars they would move freely and more quickly. Right now people wont get the bus because there isn't enough capacity and they are slow.

Maybe add in some trams / more Luas lines (but we have seen how inept are the planners that they position Luas stops at places when they block the buses)

"If you build it they will come". But it wont be built. This is what we have due to our appalling planning. It is just going to get more and more miserable for everyone who has a drive into the office

I caught up with Bachelors Walk a couple of months ago. Some here maybe aren't old enough to remember when it first aired back in 2001. But its well worth a revisit

Anyway, it is striking that Barry, Raymond and Michael would saunter across the Quays from the house on Bachelors walk and hang out on the wall where the boardwalk is now, drinking coffee or wine and just passing the time....and the traffic would be light, even in the daytime, and everything really chilled.

God, those were the days....before the sprawl

MJohnston

Yep, Dublin is in a spot where the only viable option for long-term gain is short-term pain for car commuters.

The only other option is "do nothing"