United Ireland Poll - please vote
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The IRA of 1919-1921 had a mandate from the people. Two elections were held between 1918 and 1921 . The public were under no illusion that the IRA were the Dáil's army. Dáil Éireann , however flowery , declared Independence and that they would ensure this by every means possible.
The public brought these men into their homes and gave them shelter. The IRA primarily targeted agents of the crown - RIC , Intelligence Detectives, Black and Tans, Auxies and to a lesser extent the British Army. They even had given national warnings to the RIC before they were targeted. The General public freely boycotted the RIC and their families and the local courts . The IRA did not even have the material to blow up stuff, bar the odd defenseless Big House - which was done in retaliation for Auxies burning villages and towns . The owners of said Big Houses were rarely assaulted in contrast.
Hardly terrorism !
By 1950 (actually Way earlier) the party now known as Fine Gael had nothing to do with O'Duffy or the Blueshirts. The Blueshirts were gone by 1935! Ernest Blythe was an odd cat ( a bit of a Quisling) - At one time he was a member of both the Orange Order and IRB ! Anyway, it is no shock that most sane people around the world wanted nothing to do with Communism . The Irish fascists were more into the corporate state ideology . Calling the Blueshirters, at least the ordinary plebs, fascist is a bit of a stretch, and its a term labelled by people who do not understand one iota what it means to be fascist.
A separate group, often unknown to the history illiterates , known as Áiltirí na hAiséirghe, came after the Blueshirts. They were big on the fascism
As for the IRA post Civil War, Sean Russell............he did was the likes of Casement did before him ; tap up the enemies of Britain for guns . Considering their hated Blueshirters were considered as fascist, it would be a stretch to assume that IRA figures at the time would also want to be seen or considered to be linked with ze Nazis . Sure in the 1930s he was in USSR looking to buy gear from the Commies. Historians have noted that he was accused by many groups like Dev and the media as being a commie one moment and then a nazi pal , the next. Other historians note that he had no interest in political ideology but commitment to armed force
The archives have him noted (and bear in mind these are German and Irish State archives, neither of whom have any reason to paint him in good light) stating to the Germans that " "I am not a Nazi. I’m not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland." and that "If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached"
Time to cease this embarrassing exposure of your lack of knowledge and understanding of the English language and history .
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Russell may not have ideologically been a Nazi, but he certainly collaborated with the Nazis.
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re-writing of history to suit an exclusionary partitionist mindset by using things slightly relevant but ultimately not relevant to the fact the treaty partitioning the state into a republic and an apartheid nation was signed under the threat of violence upon the irish people.
britain did thankfully lose india in the end and they will lose northern ireland and the rest of their over seas territories soon.
it's over, exclusionary partitionism is coming to an end.
ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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incorrect, it was united before british rule. 1 country, 1 island operated on a basis of a small bunch of kingdoms.
it is going to be reunited soon, a 32 county republic, a nation once again.
ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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The leader of the blueshirts was running about wanting to recruit to help the nazis on eastern front vs russia in 1942,their background in facism is pretty much a stated fact,not a consideration......its leadership were known opponants of democracy ffs🤦♂️
The first dail condemned the soloheadbeg ambush,which was launched to coincide with its first day,and had no political mandate (not that its needed to want freedom),one of the participants went on to bring guns into dail eireann on his first day and served into the mid 60s..
The ira,most deffo had ability to blow up stuff,one of most infamous pics of the WOI to circulate around the world,is a train dangling off the blown up ballyvoile bridge,now part of waterford greenway
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Christ on a Stick - Not a shred of any credible sources to back up anything that you said . Get a calculator and the election results for each other ! Maybe cop on and note the population of Antrim, Down and contrast it to Tyrone and Fermanagh lol (now and in the past)
Primary school and secondary school standards for teaching history clearly were non existent in most places in Ireland ............
What was originally sold ? No detail was given or uttered. Nothing had been seriously suggested or offered with regard to the border. You are talking complete nonsense and you won't find one shred of evidence to support that claim .
You might want to look at the election results for 1921, 1925 and so on.... Unionists had the majority in most constituencies and in the areas where Nationalists held sway, Unionists had a significant minority . Civil War guaranteed "Not an Inch" mantra.
1918 Elections for Westminster - 9 Counties of Ulster; Unionists won 23 seats out of 38, with only 10 going to SF and 5 to the Irish PP. SF and IPP had to have an election pact to make sure someone on their side got in . Bear in mind too, Dev and Collins, despite winning seats in the South , also held seats in the North
In the 6 counties, the 1918 Election - Irish Unionists won 56.2 % of the vote share and 20 seats while Unionist Labour won 3 seats and 7.6% of the vote. Sinn Fein only got 19% of the vote and 3 seats (Collins and Dev already winning down the country, I think Arthur Griffith also ran in the north ) and IPP having 11 % of the vote but 4 seats (doing better than SF in the urban areas)
By 1921 General Election , Unionists DOUBLED their seats in the 6 counties with 40 seats and 66.9 % of the vote share. SF had 20.5% of the vote share but only 6 seats whereas the last of the IPP won 6 seats on only 11.8% of the vote share. Unionists dominated in Down , Antrim and eastern part of Derry. SF went to town on this election, financially and came short
By 1925 , SF were wiped out in the North, with the remaints of the IPP under Devlin doing well with 10 seats and 12 % of the vote but couldn't win all the of seats SF once had. Unionist Independents split from the now Ulster Unionist party and between them they had 36 seats over 55 % of the vote share.The neutral NI Labour party did well in Belfast
During this time The Entirety of Antrim, NI's biggest populous county was under the control of Unionists, likewise Down and North Armagh (which included populous places like Newry) Belfast, bar the falls area, was UNIONISTS . Mid Armagh was Unionist, as was North Fermanagh . All bar of Co Derry, bar the city , was UNIONISTS !
While Tyrone was mostly Nationalist, South Tyrone (Cookstown and Dungannon) was UNIONIST
Nationalists and Republicans only has Derry City, South Armagh, South Fermanagh and North Tyrone - So even in areas where Nationalists and Republicans had a presence, it was not in full counties .
The paramilitary wing of the Irish Nationalist Party , the Ancient Order of Hibernians seemed to have been far far more interested in getting into fights with Sinn Féin supporters back then .
Funny, the FF and FG and their grass roots will combine to keep out SF and their uneducated and uncouth mob
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No, it is just your complete failure to understand the true and correct meaning of terms like "duress".
Good luck rebutting the factual points made in relation to what happened
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You contradict yourself in the same post, you claim it was united, and then admit it was operated on the basis of a small bunch of kingdoms, therefore, it was not united.
Complete lack of credibility to your post.
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Mate 4 of the occupied 6 counties now have a catholic majority,this been the case with along long time now.....dunno why you feel shouting in caps achieves,but whatever to gloss over being destroyed with facts and logic🤣
And yet your last paragraph only serves to highlight your true bias,a utd ireland and support for, has nothing to do with sf,the fact they only ones talking on it as demographics show it to be inevitable,is more a mark of the poor quality of our ruling class here,than anything else
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HA ha ha . Christ this is getting worse - now you are making things up, or almost as bad, mixing up the facts
Eoin O'Duffy , leader of the National Guard aka Blueshirts, had just been dismissed from the Gardaí in 1933 (an Excellent Garda Commissioner btw) Alas, records suggest that O'Duffy had gone to WT Cosgrave to suggest a military coup in order to stop FF from coming into power, despite the public voting FF into power. WT and Bylthe were horrified by O'Duffy's stance.
The National Guards were set up as boot boys for Cumann na nGaedheal and to try to break up FF and IRA meetings . The IRA and FF saw the former as Traitors. Fascism was en vogue all over Europe at the time. From the House of Windsor to other parts of Europe. American had Hitler on their Times Magazine cover as "Man of the Year". Wall Street Crash of 1927 made people think strange things .
O'Duffy supported corporatism. He opposed Marxism and capitalism He fell for the dramatic trappings of uniforms, parades and salutes that Mussolini brought in - style over substance.
O'Duffy and some of his men also made an appearance at the 1934 International Fascist conference in Montreux where he argued against antisemitism, telling the conference that they had "no Jewish problem in Ireland" and that he "could not subscribe to the principle of the persecution of any race" - granted he wrote a book after his time in Spain that reeked of anti jew
He did not need to travel outside of Ireland to get gullible men to go with him to Spain to fight the commies. Sure the RCC gave them their blessing (Check out Fin Dwyer's podcasts covering this period - The partisans) Sure, he was doing God's work
O'Duffy and Blueshirts WERE A SPENT FORCE by the late 1930!!! He was seen as a liability in FG by 1935 as FG got hammered in the local elections and he was blamed for it . By the 1940s he was seen as a joke in Ireland, a drunkard
Oddly enough, despite all the Civil War hatred, the IRA tried to tap up O'Duffy with the view of getting connected to the Nazis for guns. O'Duffy refused to play ball but did put the IRA into the path of a few German Spies and spoke about joining the IRA and the possible Nazi advance in Ireland
Due to his state of mind, his poor reputation and record in Spain, the German EMBASSY , not the Nazi head men, failed to take his offer of sending Irish men (all of whom with zero war experience) to the Eastern Front !! I doubt Berlin even got O'Duffy's message. They would just need to ring Franco in Spain to find out if O'Duffy was of any use (Seriously read up on Spain ! O'Duffy and co were a joke) He was certainly not "running".
Sure he was died by 1944
RE Condemnation of the killings of RIC men in Tipperary
- The General Election results occurred on 15th December 1918. SF won the day, they said they would have their own parliament. This was done 21st January . MANDATE ! Even if that was not true, there were several local elections and by elections and general elections between 1919 to 1921 ...........................
- Collins and the military heads did not
- It was awkward timing. A delegation was being sent to Paris for the Peace Conference and to seek recognition. Going off shooting police men, is not exactly smart, is it ? The failure of this campaign at least gave the Dáil back up for justifying war as a means of Independence.
A political mandate is ALWAYS needed to credibly act on behalf of the people
Which TD brought guns into Mansion House on 21st January 1919? Cite the person
RE IRA ability to blow things up ................... What is worse, the content of what you said or how you said it ."most defo". .... .Even commoners know how to communicate properly.
- The Military Reports beg to differ on the IRA's ability to blow things up ! The men in the know were often either dead, on the run or in jail
- Biggest complaint from the IRA was that the bombs that they used did not work
- Christ , an unarmed and unpoliced bridge in the middle of no where vs an armed RIC barracks or Army barracks .................... Not really proving oneself and their ability to blow things up ............
Good grief
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Mate,oduffy was recruiting for the eastern front in 1942,its ffg now try to gaslight people into thinking he wasnt a fasist
For this mandate to be approved as regards soloheadbeg,it would need a dail approval,when in fact the 1st dail condemned it (but quickly changed tack as military side took over)
The ballyvoile bridge being blown up (after overpowering tans @ enterence to tunnel),is now taken as proof,the ira couldnt blow up stuff....you couldnt make up this level of gish gallop rubbish😅😅
Never said any td brought guns to dail in 1919,but one of participants went onto be elected and brought one on his 1st day,expecting trouble from blueshirts etc
Slán
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When I identify as Irish I am referring to the fact I am from Ireland. So Irish people are split between two jurisdictions. I live and I'm brought up in the south and would not like if we were still part of the UK so I console with the Irish people who are in the UK and want out.
I do take a bit of solace in the fact the the most economic and socially bankrupt part of Ireland is London's problem while thanks to the GFA there is no physical borders splitting the Irish nation of people.
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We are not friends. Let us get that very clear. People like you would never be worthy of that status (and I doubt I am the only person of that view )
Until you come back with actual sources to back up the complete drivel that you keep spouting (no offence, I do not want to hurt your feelings) you really are wasting your time. You are most certainly doing nothing to improve this discussion .
6 counties now have a "catholic majority". How many of them Catholics are Irish Nationalists or Republicans? How many would vote away losing the NHS (for all it's faults) and the rubbish way we in the South tax people (I am referring to the USC type taxes)
How many in the North , hold Irish passports (taking into account the Unionists that hold them as a convenience for travel through the EU ) ?
Stormont Assembly Elections 2017 : 90 Seats - Biggest change coming from the Alliance - A Unionist Lite party .
DUP got 28 seats (lost 10) - 28.1 % of the vote share (down 1.1 %)
UUP got 6 Seats (lost 10) 12.9 % of the vote share (disaster)
TUV got their usual 1 seat and 2.6 % of the vote share (Once Jim dies that is them gone)
Alliance Vote share went up by 2.1 % to now having 9.1 % but they only retained their 8 seats . Their leader is a former UUP stalwart
SF got 27 Seats (lost 1) 27.9 % of the vote share (but up 3%)
SDLP retained 12 seats 11.9 % of the vote (only lost 0.1 % share - bit of a miracle that they did so well)
The odd balls like People Before Progress lost one of the two seats that they previously held. McCann would have been nationalistic but not to the point of allowing a sectarian divide.
So put DUP , UUP and TUV to one corner and SF and SDLP into another corner you get : 35 Unionist Seats vs 39 Nationalist / Republican Seats HOWEVER - 43.6 % Unionist vote share vs 39.8 % vote share . Throw the Alliance into the Unionist corner ..................
That is not a sign of Catholic majority or even Republican majority - bear in mind that the SDLP are okay with sitting in Westminster
Westminster Elections for 2017 - 18 seats -
DUP won 10 seats, up 2 with 36% of the vote.
SF had a fine result winning 3 seats, up 3 and 29.4 % of the vote
Lady Sylvia Hermon , stood as an Independent and won the other seat. She is undeniably a UNIONIST and a former member of the UUP - she left them primarily due to UUP teaming up with the Conservatives and she was more a Labourgal.
The Vote share of SF and SDLP combined was only 41 % - so much for the so called "catholic majority".
The 2019 Westminster Election was a success for SF of sorts, considering the where Finuance won a seat ! It was a total disaster for UUP
DUP won 8 seats , lost 2 seats , vote share 30.6 % down 5 .4 %
SF got 7 seats with a 22.8 % vote share - DOWN 6.7%
SDLP had a fine campaign with 2 seats with 14.9 % up 3.1 %
Alliance got 1 seat but their vote share was up to 16.8 % an increase of 8
Last local election in NI was 2019. 462 council seats to fill
DUP - 122 lost 8 - but their first preference vote was up !
UUP - 75 (lost 13)
TUV 6 (lost 7)
Alliance 53 - gain of 21
SF 105 (no change)
SDLP 59 Seats (lost 7)
Aontú gain 1
WHAT MAJORITY ?
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Its known with along long time theres likely to been a catholic majority in the census last march (still expected to peak at 5 of 6 county majority catholic)
This is to be released next few weeks,its generally accepted the british had a word in ear of government here as regards preliminary results,hence the sudden love-in for a utd ireland last summer from the blueshirts
If you are confident there isnt,support calls for a border poll,unless your afraid your precious border wont survive it
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Another historically illiterate statement with no evidence to back it up and zero intention to do so
First, Ballyvoile Bridge attack occurred ...........DURING THE CIVIL WAR ! Nothing to do with the Tans...........oh dear oh dear ........You really could not make up this level of pig ignorance.........then again, Shinners and Barstool Republicans are full of it . (no offence) EPIC Embarrassing . You really should be embarrassed. There was no fight between the RA and IFS soldiers on that bridge. The IRA were not that idiotic
O'Duffy WAS NOT recruiting !
The man could barely get out of bed at that time , due to depression and alcoholism . He PROPOSED to do it, but he got ignored . HUGE DIFFERENCE . G2 (Army Intelligence) had him under intense surveillance.
FFG , what is that?
No one is trying to comment on whether O'Duffy was a fascist or not. No one in FG speaks about him. He is forgotten ,for a good reason . There is no dispute as to his hard on for Fascism. The question mark is on the ordinary members. Even Irish Communists who fought in Spain acknowledge that many of the men were not fascist.
It is a total nonsense to link modern day FG to the Blueshirts - I speak as someone whose family (all Anti Treaty) got into a few really violent fights with blueshirters in the 1930s (my great grandfather lost his eye in a fight when a Blueshirter fired a gun close to him)
Read up on writers and historians Paul Bew (British Historian and Life Peer) Avlin Jackson (Scottish) say on this.
Historian (respected one) John Joseph Lee remarked that "Fascism was far too intellectually demanding for the bulk of the Blueshirts"
Michael O'Riordan, an Irish anti-fascist who fought in the Spanish Civil War and led the Communist Party of Ireland for many decades, said of the ex-Blueshirts who later volunteered to fight in Spain: "I never regarded them as fascists. They saw themselves as involved in a Christian crusade against 'godless communism' in Spain; at worst, then, they were dupes."
Listen, your inability to get basic English language, basic Historical facts and legal definition of words has been enough to address...........We do not need to hear from your ill thought out understanding of military tactics. Thanks !
Try and deal with one allegation at a time, with actual facts. The story about a bridge in Waterford. ...oh dear ............Morto . Surely that is worthy of a ban ?
Re guns in the Dáil. When you say "participant", that to ANYONE means , a member of the Dáil. Only TD's participate in that branch of Parliament . Choose your words wisely .
You are probably referring to post Civil War and FF members entering Dáil Éireann. ...well, if O'Duffy had his way, the FF lads were justified in carrying arms
Please stop. You got down holes that you simply are not equipped to get out of . Not a single point made by your good self survives
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"The ballyvoile bridge being blown up (after overpowering tans @ enterence to tunnel),is now taken as proof,the ira couldnt blow up stuff....you couldnt make up this level of gish gallop rubbish😅😅"
Let everyone read that statement.
The poor boy
(a) Seems to not realise that this happened durning the Civil War and not the Tan War
(b) No actually fighting was needed to bomb the bridge
(c) the writer's logic is that the burning of multiple ABANDONED RIC barracks and Tax Hunts and Unionist Civilian's homes (unarmed) is proof of some prowess of the IRA being able to blown things up, contrary to the statement and view of General Richard Mulcahay .........
(d) Its not the same as trying to take over and occupying an well built RIC barracks that is armed to the teeth with RIC men..........
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Long time? How long? Was not in 2017 or 2019 .........
Stormont Election results later this year will be the real test to that claim of yours !!
Only idiots divide people in the North based on Religion . Simpletons in fact
So, you admit that you can not produce evidence to back up your claim that the Catholics are now the majority (as if that is remotely relevant ) and you are now changing your tact by saying, it is expected that they will be a majority by now
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So you accept you pretended.
Because I was talking about the terrorist beginnings of FF and facist beginnings of FG. They are essentially the Irish state.
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Wrong, wrong and wrong again, Blanch.
I've repeatedly provided evidence that even when feuding, the people of Ireland clearly viewed themselves as one people, and those from outside Ireland as, 'other'. The position of High King certainly isn't, 'green tinged fantasy', it is historic fact. The proven existence of a commonality of culture and law well before the arrival of British rule was also ignored....but of course, you'll carry on without addressing any of these points like you did the countless other times they were brought up and then pop back in with the same gross simplification and pretend that it hasn't been completely debunked on multiple occasions.
Perhaps you're hoping that the fatigue of repeating myself means that eventually I'll stop calling it out and you can carry on unchallenged. I suppose it's working to some extent, from my original replies which contained direct evidence to my current weary, 'f*ck sake, we've been over this' lightly touching on the repeated previous points that have always been dodged.
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You using Mark O'Daly's tactic citing buzzwords? Your buzzwords are murdered individuals you use.
What 'romantic notions'? Enough of your buzz words. The Irish government consists of one party born of terrorism and another born of facism. Read up.
All your arguments basically make everything the BA and British state did just "a few people crossing the line", and I don't know history? You'll not catch me downplaying for the British state or calling a people's language trivial.
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Would you not feel the unreleased census results,would give a better indication as regards demographics?
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No, they are not the Irish state, they are two political parties of the Irish state.... the fact you cannot decipher between them speaks volumes of your raw understanding on the matter at hand.
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Yes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend ..............
While collaborating or proposing plans to allow Nazi's come into Ireland as a back door to blighty , would not only be Treasonable (for an Irish POV) it would make Ireland look bad and ensure the return of the Brits with the Americans in tow........
However, the Germans got nothing out of it really.........they couldn't trust the IRA nor did they see any value in them. IRA got sweet FA out of it too - Thankfully on both fronts
The really interesting story is how , Frank Ryan, ex IRA and committed Commi, manage to get out of a Spanish prison (fighting the Franco mob) get into Germany and end up in a German sub to Ireland (same sub that Russell died in )
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Sorry but what you claim as historical fact is pseudo-history, part of the legend-making of those who wanted to create the idea of Irishness.
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"Would you not feel the unreleased census results,would give a better indication as regards demographics?"
Why ? It does not equate to support for a United Ireland. It does not equate to support for any Nationalist or Republican party whose stated aim is to achieve a United Ireland and leave the UK.
I have clearly wrongly assumed that most people understood all that.
The POLITICAL Polls maybe far more helpful to determine the actual demographics
How many of these so called Catholics are pious or even practicing their religion ?
I wish you were joking, but it looks like you asked a serious question - You do not seem to understand Northern Ireland at all
Gone silent about that bridge in Waterford , I see. Just as well.
Now, seriously, stop !
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The unreleased census results only give a better indication if you are a sectarianist who believes that religious belief is an indicator of unionism versus nationalism.
The true analysis lies in what people do, not in what people say they are. Therefore, the indicators of political support for unionism, nationalism, and indeed any other view are determined by how people vote.
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The claims of an unbroken line of High Kings going back unbroken for all of time are certainly pseudo-historical as attempts were made to patch in the history before such things were recorded, as we proceed further into the 9th century and onwards, they become more historic than mythical. The existence of previous mythical High Kings doesn't undermine the historical accuracy of later recorded ones.
Nor do you address the repeatedly made points on how the people of this island clearly viewed eachother as one people even when feuding (demonstrated previously with examples even from basic linguistics) or the common culture and law across the island clearly demonstrating that even during periods where the High Kingship was contended and fiefdoms were at war with eachother, they were still aware of the concept of themselves as one people.
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Some people still cling to a sectarian headcount as the best way of achieving their political aims.
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Let's call a spade a spade. Those that divide people in the North based on religion are neither idiots not simpletons, they are sectarian bigots.
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"Wrong, wrong and wrong again, Blanch.
I've repeatedly provided evidence that even when feuding, the people of Ireland clearly viewed themselves as one people, and those from outside Ireland as, 'other'. The position of High King certainly isn't, 'green tinged fantasy', it is historic fact. The proven existence of a commonality of culture and law well before the arrival of British rule was also ignored....but of course, you'll carry on without addressing any of these points like you did the countless other times they were brought up and then pop back in with the same gross simplification and pretend that it hasn't been completely debunked on multiple occasions.
Perhaps you're hoping that the fatigue of repeating myself means that eventually I'll stop calling it out and you can carry on unchallenged. I suppose it's working to some extent, from my original replies which contained direct evidence to my current weary, 'f*ck sake, we've been over this' lightly touching on the repeated previous points that have always been dodged."
Jesus H Christ ..............
Even with Wikiepdia , whose contributors have done a solid job on lesser known history of Ireland...........you still can not get it right . WOW
Many of the Galeic Tribes were highly educated. Espcially in the medieval period. Care you provide documentary evidence to support those claims ?
Irish turned to foreigners to help them kill off rival Gaelic tribes . There was absolutely no sense of Nationhood before 1650s ........
High King of Ireland was often a glorified titel, depending on the strength of the King on the throne. I urge you to check out "Irish history podcast" on this period
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