United Ireland Poll - please vote

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495270#Comment_118495270

I would put genocide in there as well.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495525#Comment_118495525

I didn't ask for modern!!!!

I made a historical reference that you used a modern reference in a silly futile attempt to discredit., but hey, rewriting history is your speciality.

Go back to my original post and point out where I defended the BA, more silly nonsense from you.

BringingSexyBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118493532#Comment_118493532

Eh no. Books and libraries are AWESOME

I would like to take the opportunity to highlight several excellent and entertaining podcasts published by Irish historians , who may not yet be well known. I have no links to these guys

Irish History Podcase by Fin Dwyer - Some savage detailed programes dedicated to Ireland in the time of the Vikings, Normans and the Famine. Seriously good stuff - there are after all large gaps in Irish history that gets ignored

Three Castle Burning - Mostly on Dublin, but rather good by Donal Fallon

The Irish Revolution - by none other than Professor Mick Laffan

And History Ireland (the magazine)

BringingSexyBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495240#Comment_118495240

Blanch is talking fact. Even the concept of County Identity, never mind nation, was a creation of the English .

Educate yourself of Brehon Law (to be fair , proof that the Irish were not savages) and Tribal Septs (which could spread into two different counties )

The O'Neills of 1601 most certainly had no notions of Nationhood, but out for what land and riches he could get for himself. More than happy to smash his fellow Gael for a bit of land

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495787#Comment_118495787

The common view of Irish history is both simple and simplistic:

We were all happy lads living together under one nation until the nasty Brits came along, took all our land, made us speak English, oppressed us for 800 years, starving us along the way, before dividing our once great and peaceful land in two and allowing Protestant overlords to subjugate the Catholic people of the North.

If you question that narrative on here, expect a world of abuse to reign down.

BringingSexyBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495846#Comment_118495846

The abuse comes from simpletons. Bring it on, always up for a laugh and made to feel better that no matter how bad things are, it really could be worse..

They actually take time to think up their muck, but the takes the informed minutes to rebut it would even detail that even they could realise that they are getting rodgered. Just depends on how fast one may type. Just watch their reaction when their beliefs and or lies just get destroyed instantly. Poor dears

BringingSexyBack

Anyway 200 odd pages, and like all discussions of this very topic, not much of it is dedicated to proposals and plans to make a UI possible or discuss future stuff

Bit like the Anglo Irish Treaty , we get bogged down in mostly irrelevant matters or matters that were never actually truly ever discussed or considered (no one ever discussed what an Irish Republic was back in 1916-1922, bar maybe Connolly, and his socialism was never going to fly in land hungry Ireland )

The problem as we have seen in 200 odd pages is that there are truly some embarrassing thickos that have little to no understanding of the history of the island. Not even the most basic of facts eg when Partition actually came into being and the date . Ffs

Anyway, what kind of country would be tolerate ? Some easyish starting points

Federalism , yes or no?

Total separation , politically and legally from UK (unless UK joins the EU )

Location of Parliament

Do we redraw Constituencies ? Some "Southern" towns up north like Letterkenny or Strabane would be more at home with Derry City - How is this achieved without risk of looking like a bit of Gerrymandering ?

How do we fund Northern Cities like Belfast , Derry , Lurgan at the expense of Cork, Kerry , Limerick , Galway? What would the powerful TD's like Healy Rae's and the Lowrys and McGrath's of this world think ? Would that really expose a partitionist out look at resentment ?

How do we control and REDUCE the numbers needed for the Civil Service and local government - Cuts got to happen. Which counties feel it ?

Health services

How do we address British economic infrastructure and assets in NI ? Who pays what? Is it combatable with the South ?

While we share the same / similar legal system and our criminal and property laws are pretty similar (Even the north followed the South's legal tradition of not always sharing the same legal views on property and criminal law ) how do we consolidate both jurisdictions ? This might be easier as London forced NI to accept stuff like gay marriage and expansion on abortion (ironically championed by SF - showing that they can play the game)

Belfast (a pretty daycent place to go for a drink ) is still visually divided. Ironically , taking down those walls might hurt tourism . Can we get them all to step away from the misery tourism eg murals and monuments ?

There are loads of other things to discuss - the idiot guide to the history of the island has been done to death by now ; so has the justification of IRA terrorism from the 1980s onwards , so let us move on a bit

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495772#Comment_118495772

This is you:

P.S. What modern day murder are you talking about? Paul Quinn? Jerry McCabe?

I gave an example.

And you using the dead to deflect for the BA.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495198#Comment_118495198

this is just the re-writing of history to an exclusionar partitionist viewpoint i am afraid.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495218#Comment_118495218

I've only addressed this absolute nonsense directly with both yourself and Mark O'Daly on multiple occasions over several years now, Blanch.

On each occasion, both of you have run away from responding when your points were clearly demonstrated as incorrect.

I even predicted the last time on this merry-go-round that the position would be rapidly abandoned, you'd all shut up about it for a few months and then go for it again as if it hadn't been completely and utterly rebutted.... Quelle surprise, round and round we go.

That's not to say that the, 'we were all happy families and then the Brits came along, 800 YEARS' nonsense is accurate, but if you're going to sneer at people for an intentionally blinkered view of the history of this island, then you could at least get your own house in order first and stop trying to peddle your own equally inaccurate, grossly simplified view.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118496533#Comment_118496533

Thats the routine in multiple debates. Its handy to keep them book marked then you can easily dispense with their regurgitated nonsense.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494116#Comment_118494116

In a State set up explicitly to guarantee that outcome. Quelle surprise !

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495959#Comment_118495959

Id have no hassle with seeing belfast as the political capital and admistrative spread around the country (anyone remember decentralisation)

I do feel as regards drawing constituemcies,that the STV is best suited to larger 5-7 (possibly upto 9)) seater constituncies

I dont feel the same urge to cut huge local government employment numbers as i believe its an idologically driven blunt tool,that deosnt work and is fubdamentally 0a failed policy (but maybe too broad a discussion for this thread?)

As for belfast regarding murals (i do like em,and feel they add to urban envirnoments) and monuments,i certainly wouldnt want anyone to remove likes of commerence to shankill bombings or to nationlists/republicans killed,this is history of the country and its not going anywhere......but the best hope of peace walls coming down is education and increased oppurtunities a utd ireland would bring

FrankN1

Curious to know why anyone would want a United Ireland?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494887#Comment_118494887

Bit mischevious in terms of facts there,as it was orginally sold,NI roughly to be where the bann is (antrim & down),still only countries retaining a protestant majority

The border commission wasnt completed until 1926 (always makes me smirk,partionists screaming about needing clarity to avoid mayham -ala brexit-,when their precious border wasnt finalised until well after civil war)

The 100 year seal on the anglo-irish negociations is up this year,which should (imo) show up how conceited ffg,near century of civil war politics was

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494987#Comment_118494987

Ok, so you don't recognise the state you live in?

Brilliant, just brilliant..... ROFL

The only people who dont recognise the Republic of Ireland are the New IRA nutters who killed Lyra McKee. That is the company you keep.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495030#Comment_118495030

No it's true, the PIRA killed more civilians/nationalists/Catholics than the British Security forces.....

Those facts eh....

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497773#Comment_118497773

Slight difference. The British Army were there as peacekeepers. They shouldn't have killed anyone directly or indirectly, other than when engaged with armed paramilitaries.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497773#Comment_118497773

it's not true at all.

the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries were 1 group, ergo that 1 group killed more civilians then the PIRA.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494985#Comment_118494985

This post has to be a wind up?

The Treaty is now fascist?

Do you just lump in any buzzword and soundbite that comes into your head and you think that wins the argument?

It's clear you cannot formulate a coherent reasonable response to the questions put to you

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497787#Comment_118497787

Perhaps, but let's not forget they were directly targeted by the PIRA.

The BA was welcomed by both the IRA and the nationalists when they were deployed to keep the peace. But the IRA, humiliated by that, decided to take the battle to them...the rest is history.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497789#Comment_118497789

No, they were not 1 group.

Maybe in your head, they were but CAIN, who is the gold standard here, clearly categorises them as two separate distinct groups.

I guess when the facts don't conform to reality, one can always make up new facts, is that right EOTR?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497806#Comment_118497806

they were 1 group working for the same goal, the goal of keeping and upholding the sectarian apartheid state of NI.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497823#Comment_118497823

No, they weren't but good luck having that echo chamber discussion with your Éirígí and New IRA buddies.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497790#Comment_118497790

Is you completely misrepresting my comment a wind up?

The fascists later became FG, (who idolise a terroist). FF came from terrorists.

Your the man turning a conversation on the British and the Irish state to the IRA. The usual deflection to sell the BA as 'legitimate' despite all the murders of civilians.

The IRA signed up to peace. The BA are still at large and operating.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497933#Comment_118497933

The BA is the national army of the United Kingdom.... what do you want them to do? Just disappear? Do you think the UK has no right to its own army?

It was part of the GFA that NI would remain as part of the UK, therefore the UK has every right to station troops in its own very country, just as the Republic has the right to station troops in Louth or Donegal. Weird argument tbh.

If the IRA wanted the BA to just disappear then why wasn't that part of their red lines when it came to the peace negotiations? Oh, that's right, it WAS part of the red lines for years, but it slowly but surely dawned on them that they were not going to push the BA over the Irish Sea.....

But I see it must be very painful for you that the BA still exists in NI armed and ready to counter any extremist threat from lunatic terrorists, while the PIRA are claiming expenses from the Queen or running diesel rackets. They did after all decommission, did they not?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497933#Comment_118497933

And I have no idea why you dropped the term fascist into discussions around the treaty.... but 'Go Buzzwords!!'

BringingSexyBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118496333#Comment_118496333

Christ, your unsubstantiated claim that the IRA killing more Catholics and Nationalists has now been rebutted for hilarious enough , now you make this claim . FFS

I am pretty certain that you do not even know what you mean by accusing people of "re-writing history"

YOU HAVE PROVEN NOT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LEGAL TERM, DURESS, MEANS AND WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ESTABLISH A CLAIM OF DURESS. If you ever get around to it , then you might realise how ridiculous your allegation is . You claimed that the Treaty, a legal document, was signed under "duress". And yet, you do not understand what the word means . HA HA HA H A

Baby steps, going back to what I said : Which of the following is factually wrong

1. Arthur Griffith , who before SF became Republican had advocated a relationship between Ireland and Britain that meant both would be linked together - Was looked and the pro and cons was was content with signing the Treaty without much hesitation
2. Customs House attack, seriously knocked the stuffing out of the IRA , and did make both Dev (who had earlier refuse any talk of negotiations) and Collins come to the conclusion that a truce would be badly needed
3. Dublin Castle had slowly recovered from Bloody Sunday and were getting close to nabbing Collins and the Dail Accounts
4. Dev had developed what was known as Document No 2. It is not entirely different to what was offered by the Treaty and what transpired. It had no mention of a Republic or total separation from Ireland
5. Barton was the only signatory who went to the Anti Treaty side. None of the rest of them felt that this so called "duress" (as it is correctly defined and understood) was enough to justify not being bound by what they signed.
6. War would have continued anyway. If there had been no Truce, the tit for tat nature of the war would have continued as the IRA , by now set up in Divisions - but still relying on the Active Service Unit aka Flying Columns would keep going until ammo became scarce
7. Collins could not ship ammo and guns into Ireland before the Truce. His usual access was now blocked off - The IRA were never able to knock out a seriously protected and big RIC barracks so they had no hope of attacking an army barracks for weapons. All the big houses were gone for their access to guns ......................Collins was looking into carrying out another hit on Dublin Castle by that point - but, the element of surprise was gone as the men and their families started living within the Castle
8. When Truces in any war are called, there is the practical pressure that a deal must be done! A more nastier campaign after the breakdown of a truce is inevitable - that was even seen during the Troubles . Collins and his people , their identities were also now known to everyone . Of Course the British would go some way to an all out war by that point. They did not go through hell and back in Europe only to lose to a small tin pot country like Ireland , which would have given the likes of India ideas.
9. You clearly are not away of the terms of references sent to Dev before the June 1921 pre Treaty negotiations . Britain had made it clear by then that a Republic was out of the question, in a few simple lines.
10. Partition NEVER played a role in the intense discussions of the Treaty in Dáil Éireann in December 1921 - January 1922. The Dail records are there for all to see. I believe you can view them for free online !!! You look at the documentaries done in the 1960-1970s of veterans, and based on their own written witnesses accounts , completed in the 1930-1950s, very very very few of them, including Anti Treaty people, spoke about Partition to any great extent . The discussion is primarily based on the OATH . The north was an afterthought.
11. Partition was inevitable since 1913. Even John Redmond had publicly acknowledged the risk. Battle of the Somme guaranteed that the North would remain within Britain .
12. What had Tom Barry and Earnie O'Malley and Dan Breen , three prominent Anti Treaty men who wrote best sellers (and had intimate deals with both Collins n Dev) to say about the North? Sweet FA. O'Malley wasn't exactly complimentary about Ulster at all.

My god, when ever you get around to reading State Archives covering this period, you are in for a nasty surprise that will rip apart all of the utter mythical nonsense that you understand of that period .

You do not even come across as someone that has spent any significant time in the 6 counties or being in the company of Unionists either. A lot of naivety

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118496533#Comment_118496533

No, you have painted the green-tinged fantasy picture of a Brian Boru and others ruling the island back in the day. It didn't matter what Brian Boru or any other feudal chieftain called himself, there was no Ireland back then, in fact Brian Boru wouldn't have known much about Ireland back then.

Ireland was only ever united under British rule.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118497933#Comment_118497933

Your whole post is a wind-up.

From calling FG fascists to FF terrorists, you haven't a clue about history, just using buzzwords to be controversial and inventing ideas to back up romantic notions.