Advertisement
Boards are fundraising to help the people of Ukraine via the Red Cross at this horrific time. Please donate and share if you can, you will find the link here. Many thanks.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

1200201203205206220

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @droidman123

    "The united kingdom has 4 governments, so by your logic its not actually the "united" kingdom at all"

    Oh Dear!

    Most people have the intelligence to understand the nature of these "governments" and are educated enough to know the extent of the powers of 3 of the Assemblies

    Westminster, House of Commons and Lords - is the GOVERNMENT OF THE UK and NOT merely the government of England as a lot of morons clearly assume

    Westminster, ultimately have supremacy over the laws and legislative process of Northern Ireland , Scotland and Wales. The later is a talking shop . The judicial system based in England also has final say in matters concerning the the Courts of NI and Scotland and Wales (which is part of the England and Wales jurisdiction)

    Notice how abortion got extended in NI and gay marriage was legalised? Stormont did not vote that in. London's Parliament did !

    The said "governments" outside of London are glorified County Councils, but with extra powers. The Privy Council in London keeps manners on them

    The NI , Welsh and Scottish "governments" have little to no say in the following areas , which are a matter for the UK Parliament

    Go back to cough, school, cough



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭ droidman123


    First of all i am not a moron.you have taken my post out of context (partly my fault because the post i was replying to didnt join up) i was replying to blanch who was replying to end of the road,who said there were different kings ruling ireland but the country was united,blanch proceeded to say his post was ridiculous and it admitted that the country wasnt united(that was the general jist of the conversation)



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @ittakestwo

    "Speaking of islands. The majority people of Ireland want a UI. The majority of people on the Island of Britain want or don't care if there is a UI. It is the natural progression that there will be a UI. The gerrymandering of the Irish nation into two jurisdictions is going against what the majority of people of these islands want so it is more a question of when rather than if.

    I also think when we talk about a UI we look to much to the politics of Ireland and not what is going on across the water on Britain.

    Scotland leaving the UK would probably see the end of the union. Where would this leave the North? Obviously back to a UI."

    I think you shall find , after 200 plus pages that most of the talk is based on , primarily simplistic and inaccurate waffling about historical events (people can not even get the bloody basics right - and yes, it matters! ) before 1916 and events between 1916-early 2000s (covering the Troubles) It is no different with most threads regarding this title on any forum .

    We are as bad as the public and TDs of 1921-1922 who focused on lesser important matters contained in the Treaty (Oath to the Crown, which turned out to be not as bad in the wording)

    We'd do well, in the South, to go up to the North and properly understand the issues up there. It is well accepted that England doesn't really care about the North; but England , Scotland and Wales are stuck with the North so long as Unionists remain a majority in the North - however slight that majority is.

    Gerrymander? (It happened, yes, but your claims are total bullshit when looking at today)

    In the 1918 Elections, in the 9 counties of Ulster, Unionists won 23 out of the 38 seats with Sinn Féin gaining ten and the Irish Parliamentary Party five. Bear in Mind Shinners needed at least 3 individuals to run and win seats despite holding seats in the South . The Entire County of Derry , bar the city, returned Unionists. The Countiesof Tyrone and Fermanagh and Armagh were split into two parts, with a Unionist being returned in Tyrone and Fermanagh and Armagh along with Nationalists and SF . The most popopulous areas of the 6 counties, outside Derry City , were more by Unionists, easily. IPP were the only ones to win a seat in the small enclave in Belfast

    Note so long ago, in 2015, a Unionist won the Westminster seat for Fermanagh - South Tyrone (and lost it to SF 2 years later)

    In recent times, Places like Newry & Armagh (Deep South Armagh Ra boys) and Fermanagh/ South Tryone can still return DUP (Sharelene Foster) AND Ulster Unionist party (Elliott / Mcginnis) lads to the Assembly . Unionists like Foster have even topped the polls! West Tyrone (Omagh and Stabane areas) have seen DUP guys top the polls with ease despite being Nationalist / Catholic areas

    So even in staunch Republican and Nationalist areas, Unionists still have a strong presence . Until the last Westminster election (John Finuance outstanding win in North Belfast ) same couldn't have been said for modern SF and SDLP lads in Unionists heartlands

    By the way, the MAJORITY of the people in Northern Ireland voted to STAY IN THE NI during a referendum in the mid 1970s .

    The current polls also CLEARLY show that Southerners are in no rush to realise a United Ireland !

    The Scots are too cowardly to leave the UK and what NI Unionists do will not be influenced by what the Scots did



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    The majority of people of Ireland don't want a united Ireland, in fact they voted for the GFA in which the people of Ireland accepted the partition of the island. A veto on changing this was given to the North.

    Furthermore, even if we have a majority of this island wanting a united Ireland, it can never be put in place unless a majority of the six counties wants it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @Brucie Bonus

    "You are using the Queen, and British as a standard? Raise the bar.

    You are using a criteria set by others to decide what is and isn't a country. The days of empires plundering regions they feel are up for grabs are over. The world grew a conscience, for the most part.

    It's an island. It's always been a land unto itself. We don't need some arsehole to vet our existence. What the hell is Ulster? Do you recognise Ulster? I don't hear any other British apologists claiming Ulster was never really a province anyway. Can you find the paperwork for Ulster? When was it invented? You are trying pedantry with biased political terminology. Cop on."

    1. "It's an island. It's always been a land unto itself."

    Has it? Funny, the British, and specifically the English have had control of the place since the days of Strongbow and really made sure that they were the Daddy since Cromwell, despite the odd period of Ireland having a talking shop . Moreover, at NO TIME was the area known as the 6 counties remotely at one with the rest of the island in terms of politics, business, trade, industry, and culture.

    " 2 . The days of empires plundering regions they feel are up for grabs are over. The world grew a conscience, for the most part."

    AND .............stood idly by and did nothing . Actually they joined in . America plundering the Middle East and South America ; Russia acting the bollox around ex Soviet States like Georgia and Ukraine; Europe literally doing **** all in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Wise up !

    3 "We don't need some arsehole to vet our existence"

    When Ireland looked to Independence and Recognition, Irish TD's went to great lengths to seek International recognition by going to the Paris Peace Conference and touring America. During the Troubles, Irish diplomats camped outside the UN HQ and European Courts of Human Rights in order to get the world to see for itself what was going on in the North .

    We very much need the world to recognise Ireland's rights to the North . While there was precedent from previous Anglo Irish Treaties and Agreements and the good work of John Major, I doubt GFA would have been the success that it was without the help from the US and from the EU

    4 "You are using the Queen, and British as a standard? Raise the bar" .

    The Standard Criteria as to what is or is not a country was used. Try Bunreacht na hÉireann for the source ffs.

    You stupidly implied that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, political parties that have enjoyed great success at elections, as THE STATE. You then started blabbing on about what differences there were because said parties have enjoyed public support for so long and some horse manure about the Gardaí turning a blind eye to mass graves (They can not do a lot when the public won't come to them about it ) .

    5 What the hell is Ulster?

    Give that question a little bit of thought, surely even you are capable of that?

    It is the name of a historical province in northern territory of the island of Ireland. Known , in the Irish language as  Ulaidh, which itself was once a confederation of dynastic groups in Antrim and Down, on the east coast (Northern Uí Neill ruled area known as Derry , Tyrone , Fermanagh)

    It is a 9 county province, with the majority (62%) of the population based in the Six counties that are now in Northern Ireland. So while it seems inaccurate to refer NI as Ulster, technically, Ulster or Ulaidh was ALWAYS within the 6 counties as they used the term first.

    6 . I don't hear any other British apologists claiming Ulster was never really a province anyway.

    No body has ever made such a claim or implied it. Your comprehension issues are getting rather tiresome .

    7 Can you find the paperwork for Ulster? When was it invented? You are trying pedantry with biased political terminology. Cop on." 

    Did you actually ever go to school? I am certain that your knowledge of the history of Ireland is weak. I wonder do you even understand what you are saying ?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo


    Not true. In the south 67% favour a UI and just 16% against. 5 million live in the south. So out of the 7 million people in Ireland yes the majority do want UI. Are you going to waste posts arguing with this?


    How can you infer that someone voting for the GFA means they don't want a UI when the GFA implicitly directs how a UI will happen in the future? I was not old enough to vote for the GFA but would have and still would yet I am in favour of a UI.


    You keep saying the GFA gives the North a veto. The North and South both need to want a UI for it to happen. They are in a complete reciprocal relationship regarding a UI regarding the GFA yet you always come out with "The GFA gives NI a veto" or "The GFA means it is only up to the people of NI to decide their destiny" you could switch NI for ROI in these sentences, and it would still have the same meaning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    Didn't look chief. You'd rather be childish than answer my questions about Ulster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    First off, we all attended history class when we were 11 and 12.

    Secondly, you say they 'controlled'. Controlled what?

    Where did the Norman's invade?

    Its a silly debate. End of the day a section of Ulster is occupied.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    When was that referendum held for the 67%?

    Are you disputing the statement that NI has a veto? It doesn't seem like you are, so I don't understand your point. As is clear to anyone, it doesn't matter how many people in the South want a united Ireland, be that 1% or 100%, if the North votes no. That means NI has a veto.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    And it was always Britain? You can't claim one thing and then switch my friend. The Scots won't be happy. lmao and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo


    Opinion polls as you know there has not been a referendum yet.


    I am not disputing that the south or north has a veto in a UI. You seem to think it is just the North?

    Can you confirm that you acknowledge that the GFA treats the south and north exactly the same regarding a UI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo


    So majority of British want Scotland to remain but don't care for the North. Shows how more removed the North is from the British while the majority of Irish want a UI. Shows a UI it is the natural progression given the attitudes of the people of these islands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @ittakestwo

    "Not true. In the south 67% favour a UI and just 16% against. 5 million live in the south. So out of the 7 million people in Ireland yes the majority do want UI. Are you going to waste posts arguing with this?

    How can you infer that someone voting for the GFA means they don't want a UI when the GFA implicitly directs how a UI will happen in the future? I was not old enough to vote for the GFA but would have and still would yet I am in favour of a UI.

    You keep saying the GFA gives the North a veto. The North and South both need to want a UI for it to happen. They are in a complete reciprocal relationship regarding a UI regarding the GFA yet you always come out with "The GFA gives NI a veto" or "The GFA means it is only up to the people of NI to decide their destiny" you could switch NI for ROI in these sentences, and it would still have the same meaning."

    The South can have 10 million, and all of them could want a UI tomorrow, it will mean nothing if the majority in the 6 counties vote to stay in the UK or refuse to hold a referendum. If NI vote, then the South will hold their own referendum. Polls don't make things official. Voting in Referendums do.

    Two of the main elements of GFA were :

    • the acknowledgment that the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom; and
    • that an outline of the possibility in the future where a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, and the majority of the people the rest of the island (thus, an overall All island majority) , wished to bring about a united Ireland.

    So, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom now and in the future , and would remain so until a majority of the people both of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise

    At this time, there is nothing close to a majority in the 6 counties for a UI .

    "How can you infer that someone voting for the GFA means they don't want a UI when the GFA implicitly directs how a UI will happen in the future?

    Nothing in GFA , in relation to potential unification, is any different to previous Treaties on this matter.

    The Ulster Unionist Party, the bastion of Unionism , historically, were happy to sign up to GFA, knowing damn well that the potential of a UI would be decades away, if it ever happened . They voted for what was already on paper since Sunningdale and Anglo Irish and Downing Street Agreements

    Today, Parliament still acts on the sectarian divide , and not like other parliaments ; It barely sits; Belfast is still physically divided

    The British at the time had an interesting observation of the Republicans and Unionists.

    To them, the Republicans lost their claim of a 32 County Republic and admit that the IRA could never beat the British and to put down their weapons ; yet they spun it to the world that they won the argument - They spun it to say that you can now be an Irish Citizen as of birth (prior to that if you were born in NI , unless your parent was born in the South, Irish Citizenship was not automatic , you had to do a few procedures first. For the first time, Republicans had to official acknowledge that NI was part of the UK.

    To the British, the Unionists won- they defeated the IRA (who failed in their mission). The concessions on citizenship and power sharing were small sacrifices for the fast the NI remained within UK and remained British. Unionist sold GFA as if they lost everything.

    Over the years, many people were happy to say they want a United Ireland. However, when they got asked would they want it now, they often said , "ah in 10 years maybe". When the South recognize the costs and don't buy into the bullshit comparison about Germany, lets see how quick they will be so up for a UI.

    "You keep saying the GFA gives the North a veto. The North and South both need to want a UI for it to happen. "

    True, but the South won't hold an can note really a vote before the North, so............... its effectively a veto . All that is required is for Unionists, you remain the biggest community , to come out and vote NO.

    ""The GFA means it is only up to the people of NI to decide their destiny" you could switch NI for ROI in these sentences, and it would still have the same meaning."

    LOL. You have clearly never had the misfortune of meeting a Unionist. Southerners have to thread carefully when they " interfere" in Northern issues. (Contrary to what Unionists thought about Irish commenting on Brexit and NIP - Ireland has a right under GFA to be consulted by the UK Parliament)

    For obvious practical reasons , NI would have to hold a vote first. Southerners holding a vote first , is a waste of time. NI are the ones less likely to agree to joining. They are the ones that need more convincing . It really would not have the same meaning.

    To Unionists, agreeing to join the Republic, and leaving the UK, it totally removes their identity of being British ie part of Britain. Sure they can keep their British passports but that will mean **** all when their (new) National anthem is not and can never be God Save the Queen and we aren't going to tolerate them burning our "flegs" during the Sectarian Hate weekend in July.



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @Brucie Bonus

    "First off, we all attended history class when we were 11 and 12.

    Secondly, you say they 'controlled'. Controlled what?

    Where did the Norman's invade?

    Its a silly debate. End of the day a section of Ulster is occupied."

    Being present inside the classroom while history lessons were dished out , just to stay out of the cold, is not the same as attending said classes. ! You evidentially were part of that mob, based on the substantiated and undefendable rubbish that you spouted.

    Secondly, 11 -12 is sixth class Primary School. Unless you had a brilliant Primary School teacher, history lessons were simplistic and barely touch on these complex issues, least not the school texts !

    Re Control - I said

    ", the British, and specifically the English have had control of the place since the days of Strongbow and really made sure that they were the Daddy since Cromwell,"

    Lands and ownership of same ; the laws - creation of the feudal system and the creation of the Common law system and later the Courts of Equity ; taxes, trade, ability to physically ship goods in and out of the land

    Started in towns like Dublin , Waterford and then moved in land and established new towns (eg Roscommon Town , Sligo ,Galway,Carrickfergus ) in the midlands and West and alter Ulster , or expanded already existing towns (Athlone & Rindoon) with town walls and forts and castles etc.

    "Where did the Norman's invade?

    Go back to school!

    "Its a silly debate. End of the day a section of Ulster is occupied." "

    No, there is nothing silly about a debate on a United Ireland. People like YOU make it silly and hijack it with totally retardation and complete disinterest in learning basic facts that you sorely miss. That or you like trolling and have no desire to discuss this

    You throw out a bomb of nonsense, then run away , refusing to address the successful counter claim

    Ulster was always "occupied", the majority of the people in the majority of the counties in Ulster , still prefer to remain British. Let us focus on that and whether this can change

    200 odd pages, about 5 have seriously addressed the island , today and tomorrow. Instead, preferring to have ignorant people expose their ignorance on the history of the island



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo


    So yes we agree, from a legal point, the south and north are treated the same regarding the GFA. Both need majority to bring a UI and are both in a reciprocal relationship regarding a UI from the legal position. Agreed?


    BTW what treaty was there before the GFA that dealt with how a UI would happen?



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack



    First, GFA is key because it was the First time that the Irish State, acknowledged its stake in NI and changed the Constitution accordingly. However, the Constitutional interpretation of old Article 2 and 3 can be found in the Supreme Court case of McGimpsey - where it was said that both articles were not a claim of ownership, but aspirational.

    Sunningdale - It brought power share . It followed previous Act of Government Act 1920 with the COuncil of Ireland (Unionists say that as a step to UI) (GFA had that too) Much of Sunningdale is contained in GFA - Hence, Sunningdale for the low learners

    Anglo Irish Agreement 1985 - Gave Ireland some powers to be consulted and confirmed that there would be no change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland unless a majority of its people agreed to join the Republic. It also set out conditions for the establishment of a devolved consensus government in the region.

    Downing Street Declaration 1993 - This declaration affirmed both the right of the people of Ireland to self-determination, and that Northern Ireland would be transferred to the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom only if a majority of its population was in favour of such a move

    Allow agreed that UI could only come about by peaceful means.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    You seem incapable of being calm or civil.

    This level of rabid debate is beneath me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    Yes. Before the GFA we'd a claim, but now we've an agreed by both sides path.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭ droidman123


    And once again with the insults



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus




  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    @Brucie Bonus

    "Yes. Before the GFA we'd a claim, but now we've an agreed by both sides path"


    Wrong AGAIN - Legal Claims are all that matter. Political claims are not strong enough

    It (Article 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann ) was aspirational and no more. The Constitution must be read as a whole , with the other articles. See Mc Gimpsey v Ireland Supreme Court 1990 https://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1990/3.html https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5da027284653d058440f9356



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    Very calm and very civil. Generous and patient. Far more than your are worthy of or deserve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ BringingSexyBack


    What insults? Facts are not insults , especially proven facts .

    Stop hijacking the thread with stupidity . Come here with informed and relevant views

    People who are out of their depth on these topics and come on here in the tone that they do, have no reason to feel "insulted " if you are made to feel foolish and get owned in a counter argument. That is on them.

    Jesus, lads, people seem too easily insulted no a days . Man up and grow up

    Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ ittakestwo


    And are you also in agreement that the GFA does not treat the north different to the south regarding that they both need a majority for a UI.


    If you interrupt the GFA as giving the north a veto then you would also have to interrupt it as giving the south a veto as both the north and south, by the law of the GFA are in a reciprocal relationship.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    "There has been enormous growth in the number of young people who describe themselves as Northern Irish; young people have grown up with the surge of hope generated by the Good Friday Agreement and tend to identify with this state, while having a secondary identity of being either Irish or British."

    Despite all of the denial on here, the spectre of the third identity in Northern Ireland continues to grow.

    Interesting also to note that the nationalist parties are still stuck on 36% in Northern Ireland. It will be very much a hollow victory if Michelle O'Neill manages to become First Minister with political support only in the mid-20s.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,493 ✭✭✭ Brucie Bonus


    'Despite all the alleged denial, here's a man's opinion that I agree with'.

    Somebody needs to take their own advice and stop associating a UI with a Sinn Fein obsession.



Advertisement