Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I can see them doing it really half arsed, and in your pic there, just building the northern part to get the N25 part out of the town. TBH I can't see the southern link being done at all.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The upper bound for a Type 1 single carriageway (single with hard shoulders and proper junctions) is around 11,600 AADT. Traffic between Midleton and Castlemartyr was around 16k AADT pre-Covid (and it's getting back to those levels, averaging 15.5k per day at the minute). It's also not exclusively commuter traffic, last Tuesday saw 14k, Friday 17.5k and Saturday 15.5k (it being hurling championship weekend may have inflated those figures somewhat).

    Based on those figures there is justification for a 2+2 from Lakeview to at least east of Castlemartyr. These figures don't include traffic going via Mogeely to avoid Castlemartyr which may return to the N25 should a relief road make the N25 more attractive. Traffic drops to 12k or so east of Killeagh.

    The issue I haven't seen enough people mention is how a Castlemartyr bypass will just shift the issue west to Lakeview. Lakeview needs a long term solution and there are so many constraints I can see why tackling the issue is being avoided.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    If I could, I would only quote your last paragraph but the lads fecked up basic functionality of the site.

    I have said similar a number of times, nothing much will be done while the Lakeview RAB remains. No matter how much is spent east of Midleton, the RAB will mean the net benefits are limited. I think the solution is a new junction further east with new link roads running north and south. Add a new P&R station on the train line to green up the project, that could move it up the priorities list pretty swiftly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Lakeview needs just a flyover, perhaps running 2+2 flat and having the current Midleton - Whitegate road as a flyover? and then you can more or less go east along the current alignment as 2+2 and have a junction to the east a little bit, maybe where the current Midleton East turn off is. Link that to the Whitegate road.

    See the thing is, if you bypass Castlemartyr AND sort Lakeview, Killeagh will turn into a bottleneck so you might as well run 2+2 to the far side of Killeagh. Then its only a few kilometers to the Youghal bypass, which they originally planned to retrofit to 2+2 (although a bridge or two may need widening, that bit is cheap).

    But then you have the Youghal bridge, compared to the extravagance of New Ross and the suspension bridge of Waterford, really is behind the times in terms of capacity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yes please. Lakeview is probably the biggest issue around. From the "sustainable" perspective it's quite bad, and from a traffic flow perspective it's bad too. I agree that it needs to be further East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The bottleneck will not just move, because the majority of traffic on that road does not originate in Youghal. I drive this road regularly, but against the Cork commuter flow, and when you do, it’s much easier to see where volumes are being added.

    The vast majority of the traffic volume into Cork is from Castlemartyr westward. Every morning lots of people come up from the housing developments at Ballycotton, Shanagarry and Ladysbridge and join N25 at Castlemartyr, and it’s this flow that tips the current road over capacity. Having to join at a light-controlled junction makes the effects worse, and in the evening, when they go home, having to turn right across the main road makes it slower to clear.

    Killeagh backs up because of people trying to get from the East to Cork using Mogeely as a diversion to avoid Castlemartyr. That requires a right-turn in Killeagh, which dramatically slows things down for anyone trying to just drive through.

    If Castlemartyr is bypassed and the Ballycotton/Shanagarry/Ladysbridge traffic given a smoother merge into and off the N25, the problems further East are manageable. But there will always be slow traffic at morning and evening commuter peaks. We don’t build road capacity to allow the absolute peak volume to sail through at the speed limit.

    There’s also potential to extend the Cork commuter railway as far as Mogeely or even Killeagh. This won’t do anything for places south of Castlemartyr, but it could ease pressure on Mogeely (where the station would be), or Castlemartyr, and with extensive park-and-ride, would make a road/rail commute from Youghal possible. ( Actually, on an aerial photo, you can still see the old rail alignment into Youghal, but reopening this would be very expensive. )

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I appreciate the effort, and understand your logic but I would go with the East-West 2+2 as a flyover (of flyunder?) if it were technically possible. I realise that it would be more complex, but if you flyover North-South you still need to deal with pedestrians and cyclists. The junction basically cuts the town in two and people don't currently like to walk over the existing pedestrian bridge. They literally prefer to dodge traffic at the East of the Roundabout rather than use it.


    For me, the better solution is to move the junction further East.

    In an absolutely dream world, I'd love to see a "half" cut-and cover of the junction, so that E-W traffic goes through a short tunnel, the N-S traffic is an at-grade street with sustainable transport accommodated by design, no merge lanes in the current location and Bailick Avenue restored as an active transport link (only) between East and West, like the doodle above. This would actually facilitate development of the land South-East of the junction, if that was desirable to the Council (I'm not sure what the long-term plan for that land is).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Tis a good plan but why must it be in a dream world? Not having a go at you here of course, but just a general thought.

    Limerick - Galway was done, Eamonn Ryan aside there are plans for the N24 either 2+2 or part motorway, stuff like the N13 is being done, the N5 gets sorted but yet any talk of N25 upgrades seems to be either ignored or (even on here) gets the "AADT isn't high enough" treatment. Why? What is so different about the N25 that it must not be upgraded? Why does it need a ministerial strop to get two small cheap relief roads when a 2+2 from Midleton - Youghal is consistently off the radar when other schemes are fawned over? Why was there never even really a plan for Midleton to Youghal? Why did Castlemartyr not get sorted YEARS ago?

    At the end of the day the N25 is a strategic route from Cork to Waterford and onwards to Rosslare port with all the HGVs, caravans and heavy goods traffic that brings. Given the investments elsewhere, there should be a concrete plan to have 2+2 with some GSJs all the way from Midleton to Rosslare. The NRA/TII have often said they don't like route quality changing, but yet the N25 has a bit of everything as it stands and it really seems to be a no-go route to upgrade other than some tinkering. I can see why Carrigtwohill to Midleton is being done, although they went with the cheapest, most half arsed option they could. Waterford - Glenmore is dubious at the moment. Everyone knows I want a Dungarvan bypass but why is Castlemartyr so far behind the times? And then Lakeview?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Hey I'm with you all the way. I'm one of the people who cycles and drives on it regularly and I'm extremely familiar with the needs for an upgrade.

    But it is not politically sexy.

    East Cork doesn't matter. Cork overall barely matters, and it is very difficult to persuade politicians and planners that we in East Cork need upgraded infrastructure. To compound matters there is a train line directly in parallel with the N25 which has been explicitly marked to stay shut in the medium-term (a plan that I agree with). The issues on the N25 are not statistically significant. Absent a high mortality rate, the N25 will not get significant funding.

    Hilariously enough, I think my "doodle" above could be dressed up as an urban realm and sustainable transport enhancement, if someone had enough willpower. You could easily use it to fund the Midleton East junction. You'd then have a Midleton West (Oatencake) and Midleton East junction. I personally don't think there's need for three Midleton junctions!



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I noticed the railway line myself on Google Maps a while ago. I think it's insane that it's sitting idle. It wouldn't be a massive project to upgrade the line from Midleton to Youghal. It already exists and is presumably in state ownership.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    You mean to rebuild the line and restore train service, or to turn it into a greenway? I would be all for a greenway, but I would be surprised if a railway to Youghal would be commercially viable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep, it's not commercially viable. Once Waterrock is done, a SDZ in Mogeely could be a good shout. But Youghal is a BIG stretch. I'd love to see it in my lifetime, but I really doubt it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes, the only likely rail extension would be to a new Special Development Zone between Mogeely and Castlemartyr. Beyond that, there’s no catchment for a train service until you get to Youghal, but Youghal itself is too far away from Cork to justify the cost of building a line out that far and too small to act as a hub, plus the railway alignment to Youghal doesn’t allow for any cost-effective extension into Co. Waterford.

    Back on roads: with a bit of thought, a northern bypass of Castlemartyr could later serve as the main east-west access roads in that Mogeely SDZ. This would allow the problems to be treated now without the “wasted expenditure” of later bypassing the bypass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭FGR



    You're absolutely right. I'm pro M25 but politically the only way this section of the N25 would be touched is if either East Cork or West Waterford got a front bench minister. Just look at how Wexford has prospered during Brendan Howlins tenure.

    Hopefully we'll see that at some point but it won't be soon.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Transport21 intend on the Atlantic corridor motorway from Rosslare to Letterkenny being complete by now?

    In the multiverse maybe !



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Safety fist, then capacity. N25 is now a very safe road - it’s well engineered and the dangerous bits have been realigned or bypassed. It has a couple of bottlenecks, but there are now very few collisions or other incidents. There are far worthier candidates for works - once every other National Primary is at least up to the same standards as N25, we can look at capacity fixes. Yeah, it’s annoying to be stuck in traffic, but people have been killed on other roads due to poor sightlines, hidden junctions, bad bends or inadequate passing space. Fix those problems first.

    There will be no "M25" - traffic levels don’t justify it outside of Cork City, and Cork doesn’t want one of its major commuter corridors under motorway restriction, because then it would have to pay to build alternative routes out of its own funds. With the sole possible exception of N20, we don’t need more motorways - just a network of high-quality roads.

    Before anyone starts playing the parochial card - N25 is the road I drive most often by far, and any upgrade between Midleton and Waterford would be a direct benefit to me. I want to see it improved, but I don’t think it’s more important than bringing the rest of the network up to a safe standard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭mcburns07


    Agreed Kris, I drive Castlemartyr to Cork every day for work and capacity wise it seems fine. A bypass of Castlemartyr is essential at this stage though, it's such a bottleneck for commuters and day trippers at the weekend. The village itself would benefit massively from reduced traffic, there are a lot of empty properties that might finally be redeveloped if traffic volumes were reduced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭FGR


    I agree with pretty much everything you've said - the one problem is that there are plenty of areas along the N25 where one (often very) slow driver can dictate the speed at which all traffic must flow. From the end of the Youghal Bypass to Killeagh is often a spot I've observed this; albeit anecdotally; and the reason why overtaking isn't available is due to heavy traffic coming from the opposite direction. I've seen quite a few dangerous attempts at overtaking here.

    Another bad section is Carroll's Cross for about 4km towards Kilmeaden; overtaking opportunities aside that area is notorious for dangerous manoeuvres by people pulling across in front of traffic from side roads - not to mention the disaster that is Waterford Co Co's love of roundabouts in Dungarvan with another on the way at Coolagh!

    Don't get me wrong - when the roads are quiet and/or when drivers use the road correctly the N25 is one of the best national roads in the country - sadly though unless they start telling people to either pull in and let traffic flow or introduce more overtaking lanes then it will continue to be a cause for concern and dangerous driving.

    Maybe not M25 but 2+2 would help a lot of this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I know of several serious crashes which have resulted from people pulling out of side-roads.

    The Dungarvan roundabouts are a disaster too. They render the bypass almost unusable. They'll surely be looking for a "bypass-of-the-bypass" before long. I often find it faster to go through town than to take the bypass, and that shouldn't be the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In my experience it’s never quicker to go through Dungarvan than use the bypass road, and I can’t accept that roundabouts would be an issue to any drivers on a stretch of road that’s under a 60 km/h speed limit.

    There is an outer bypass of Dungarvan on the list of suspended projects: the preferred route from 2010 was approximately 16 km of Type 2 DC from the bend at the Sweep (the wide hairpin just west of Dungarvan) to about 2 km east of the Pike (the tight hairpin to the East of Dungarvan).

    This would not be a cheap build: the two ends of this scheme involve some really difficult terrain (and the section over the River Brickey is wetland).



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    On theoretical distance and speed it's slower to go the ring road. It's 3km/60kmh versus through the town (2.4km/50kmh). I think they've recently made the square a 30kmh "shared space", and that now makes the end result closer, so it's almost equal both ways.

    The roundabouts make you cede right of way, so if there's a car even going the opposite direction to you, you must act with caution and not "chance it" until they're through. Maybe "negotiate" the roundabout is a good way to describe it. And though you negotiate 2 "proper" roundabouts through the town, the ring road has 5. HGV's naturally won't build up to full speed between some of the roundabouts. I don't think it's possible to go anywhere near the 60kmh average end-to-end. I suspect it's more like a 35-40kmh average.

    Late at night or early in the morning when I pass, if there's a HGV ahead of me, I'll often go through town and come out ahead. I fully acknowledge that this is undesirable. But I also think the number of roundabouts was excessive.

    Maybe we should start a new N25 thread for East of Youghal, because this is an interesting discussion IMO. Dungarvan has long been a pain in the behind, for me.


    EDIT: Dial 07:00 into Google maps there, and it'll tell you through town is normally faster than the Ring Road. Whereas, if you dial in 19:00 into Google maps, it'll tell you that around town is normally faster. This echoes what I've seen and I think echoes what you're saying. Depending on the time of day, through town is faster. That's a shame, to be honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Its no quicker to go through the center of Dungarvan... I've been stuck coming westbound behind a car with a trailer behind it carrying a boat. It went around the ring road and I went through the center of the town to try and get past it. Speed limits all the way of course, but coming out at the final roundabout who should juust be going round it... bloody trailer and boat. And this was with no traffic on a Saturday evening late. But the problem with Dungarvan isn't just the roundabouts its the 60kmh section up The Pike to the east of the town. Thats torture and makes the overtaking line (which is terrifying to use) absolutely useless.

    Sadly, the roundabouts are just as slow as going through the center can be. But I do stand by my original thing - that the entire of the N25 should be at least 2+2. Perhaps Type 1 from the end of the proposed Carrigtohill - Midleton scheme to the east of Castlemartyr where a lot of traffic leaves, but 2+2 from there all the way to the N11/N25 junction at Wexford.

    If the N24 is getting at least 2+2 for the entire of its length, then this should happen for the N25 too. Theres also the small matter of the 1960s Youghal Bridge - like its predecessor that had a 20mph speed limit and chicanes, its the only river crossing south of Cappoquin. And Cappoquin has the Tullow Hairpins just west of it... not suitable for HGVs, so the alternative is the N24 which is a substantial diversion (although admittadly its actually not as much of a diversion as you probably think, look at it in google!)

    I'd agree with a new thread for east of Youghal perhaps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There is no chance of dual carriageway east of Dungarvan, nor should there be. The fact that east of Midleton is well down the priorities list tells a story, that's before the terrain difficulties east of Youghal.

    An upgraded N24 will accommodate traffic between Cork and Waterford/Rosslare. The additional distance is small and the better road quality and fewer reasons to stop could make that route more fuel efficient. At that stage the N25 between Youghal and Waterford would be more suited to being a National Secondary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    An upgraded N24 will accommodate traffic between Cork and Waterford/Rosslare. The additional distance is small and the better road quality and fewer reasons to stop could make that route more fuel efficient. At that stage the N25 between Youghal and Waterford would be more suited to being a National Secondary.

    Either the whole route is a primary, or none of it is: use of certain sections doesn’t come into it. Even if it did, you may not be familiar with the route, as traffic picks up a lot between Dungarvan and Waterford. The only really quiet stretch is between Dungarvan and Youghal (and further east, between New Ross and Wexford), but that is already built to a high standard, and is unlikely to need upgrading for decades.

    But N24 will not replace N25. From Port of Waterford to the Jack Lynch Tunnel is 145 km via N24+M8, and 125 km via N25 (from Rosslare is 204 vs 184). You won’t last long in the freight business if you pay 12~16% more than you could have to get goods from A to B. And yes, you can travel a little faster on M8, but that uses more fuel per km, so costs more again. And while the N25 distance has potential to be reduced by about 5-6 km through the various planned bypasses, there aren’t any such possibilities on N24 - the new alignment is actually likely to be longer than the current one in order to bypass Clonmel.

    The N24 has an important purpose, but that purpose is not to be the main route between Waterford and Cork (or, for that matter, between Cork and Limerick) - funnelling all traffic east of Cork through this route would require making N24 into a motorway, which would have little chance of passing planning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Naturally traffic east of Cork would continue to use the N25. Depending on the start point/destination, the N24 may be a more attractive route, particularly if DC is provided making it an easier/safer journey. It would become even more so if the Cork NRR was built.

    The fact remains, the traffic levels between Youghal and Waterford, the safety of the existing road and the difficult terrain to be contended with if building a new road will mean that such a new road is extremely unlikely to be built. We know for certain that it is not on the radar for the foreseeable future. The N24 is further ahead in the process and if delivered, it will likely impact future N25 upgrades.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep agreed with you there KrisW1001. The N24/M8 particularly makes little sense for those journeys originating East of the M8. South of around Dungourney it's N25 every time. North of Dungourney, it's N72 and N25.

    Even if the N24 is upgraded, a large number of journeys will never migrate over. I don't think the volume on the N25 is going to go anywhere but up in the medium to long term, regardless what happens with the N24.

    A bit like the M20 in that regard. On the face of it, the diversion via the N24 looks reasonably sensible but it's all the same arguments again: only a small fraction of the traffic is end-to-end and a lot of the traffic originates on the corridor.

    This relates back to the original thing I said, Cork doesn't matter much at a national level and East Cork less so. There's no real comprehension at a national level of the level of industrial and economic activity in the area. But the Carrigtohill / Midleton area is reasonably significant, as is Dungarvan. This is unlike the west-of-Ireland cry of "we need infrastructure to attract industry". The industry is actually there, and the traffic likely isn't going to divert to another corridor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Gunner3629


    Well if we can't get funding for this road under a Cork Taoiseach and Public Expenditure minister, we'll never get it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Exactly this. Someone mentioned earlier that Wexford thrived while Brendan Howlin was a minister, but so did Sligo with no minister. Limerick had Michael Noonan for many years, Cork has Mícheál Martin, Simon Coveney, Michael McGrath in cabinet, not to mention a plethora of other TDs and senators in government.

    If infrastructure is really a pressing issue for the electorate of Cork, it needs to be consistently be made known to politicians that it's a political issue that could cost them their seat. When vocal cohorts, at local level, make it their business to object to infrastructural development, as was the case with the M28, as is the case with the M20, that dilutes the cause at a political level. This didn't happen in Wexford, Sligo, Mayo or indeed with any other major infrastructure project except notably the current Galway ring road saga, and of course Dublin, where objections to everything and anything while moaning about traffic/housing/lack of public transport has become a perennial hobby.

    As long as these projects are deemed to be like a GAA match within the political realm, in which politicians have to take a 'side', there will be delays/inertia/cancellations. Politicians respond to what their electorate demands of them. Unfortunately in Cork, the demands are incoherent and often become politically toxic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,208 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Taoisigh and Ministers don't have a free hand to build any road they like. Even if they did, the entire process takes so long that they could no longer be in that position when vital decisions are made. There is a long list of projects moving through the system, any other projects added have to start from the beginning.

    It never ceases to amaze me how some people complainaboutprojects elsewhere and accuse of parish pump politics but then cry out for parish pump politics to benefit themselves.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    100k included for N25 Midleton-Youghal in 2022.


    Massive, massive kudos to James O’Connor TD for persistence on this given the funding reductions in the forthcoming year.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Sometimes you need a young TD like him to shake it up a bit and push for something, making him unpopular at party level. He isn't towing the line like they "should", which is great.


    Edit: Interesting that its listed as Midleton - Youghal specifically, rather than just "Castlemartyr and Killeagh relief roads".

    Maybe they've read boards and seen my constant whinging!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Gunner3629


    Eamon Ryan said the following about the Castlemartyr bypass recently:

    “I can confirm that an allocation has been made by TII to Cork County Council for the N25 Castlemartyr and Killeagh bypass, which is on the N25 Midleton to Youghal corridor.”

    Source:http://stanton.ie/2022/05/17/castlemartyr-bypass-2/

    I can only assume thats the 100k allocated to it in TII 2020:

    https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/reports-accounts/tii-allocations-2020/2020NAT_CorkCoCo.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Bypassing both places is a much bigger scheme than I was expecting from the Greens. In honesty, Castlemartyr alone would fix 90% of the problems.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Big question is where do you start and end?

    Loughaderry-Burgess would sort the 2 villages but put serious pressure on the Lakeview roundabout. Killeagh-Youghal bypass is just a few km that you could do for safety reasons if you’re doing the 2 villages. How to deal with Lakeview is the big question



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Lakeview will be its own project, I suspect. It will need some pretty expensive solutions to deal with the movements it needs to in such a limited area. It's also a safe, out-of-town interchange that is congested primarily at peak times by car commuters, so that would push it down the list for improvements. (Killeagh and Castlemartyr have heavy traffic traversing the main street, and Castlemartyr is congested across the whole day; both count in their favour for being progressed ahead of Lakeview)

    Killeagh to the Youghal bypass is already pretty good. A lot will depend on what standard of road is chosen for this scheme. If it's 2+2 (which I suspect it would be, given current traffic levels), that would make a direct tie-in to Youghal bypass more likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The old scheme was Midleton to the Waterford end of the Youghal bypass. I suspect that the scope of this one will be the Midleton junction (where the current Carrigtwohill - Midleton scheme ends, if it ever gets done), to the start of the Youghal bypass.

    Whether the whole lot gets built initially or whether they design it to build say, Castlemartyr west to Killeagh east or something like that first, I dunno. Good to see it is actually moving a little bit though.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    After a year of work, this scheme has jumped the first fence in the Grand National of National Roads Project Planning

    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41055371.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    "For transport projects, this is now classified as being at the end of the initial scoping stage in advance of concept and feasibility studies."

    Sums it up nicely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭NedNew2


    I don't want to derail the thread with a tangent but looking at the sign from the above article (https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-41055371.html), should it be Cork at the top followed by the furthest away destinations in order? What is the logic used in the sign?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It’s just a mistake, I think. All of those are directly reachable from N25, so they should be listed in descending distance order.

    The next sign of this kind along the road, just after Castlemartyr, has the destinations in the correct order:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭Limerick74


    Looks like that sign was extended or modified, which probably lead to the incorrect order of destinations.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Minister in the Dail

    In response to an earlier question, I mentioned the Castlemartyr bypass as a specific example of the type of project we want to accelerate. The consequences for villages and towns across the country where there is that volume of through traffic are very disruptive, and that stops what we are doing on the other side, with Croí Cónaithe and other projects, where we want to get families back in the centre of villages and towns. Taking the through traffic out liberates these towns. Castlemartyr is on the list of projects that I have asked Transport Infrastructure Ireland to try to progress as fast as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭mcburns07


    Spot on, there's quite a few big properties with huge gardens on the main street in Castlemartyr ripe for renovation but the appetite isn't really there because of how busy the road is all day.

    It's mind boggling that it's still only being discussed given the volumes of traffic that pass through both villages each day and how easily and cheaply they could be bypassed.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    What's even worse re: your 2nd point is that only for Deputy O'Connor kicking up about this in late 2021 it would be on the post 2030 list. Scandalous carry on



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Gunner3629


    Is the anticipated plan to create a dual carriageway from Lakeview roundabout in Midleton all the way to Youghal - bypassing Killeagh and Castlemartyr along the way - or will it just be a single lane bypass?

    Some of the existing road is actually very wide and could possibly be converted to dual carriage, such as Killeagh to Youghal N25. Is a completely new road and route expected?

    Also, can someone remove the [suspended] tag this thread has.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I believe originally the plan (back in 2008 or so) was a dual carriageway from Midleton to Youghal. There was certainly rumours of the Youghal bypass being retrofitted to DC but no plan for the Blackwater Bridge. I believe the 2008 scheme never got to the stage where something to deal with the Lakeview Roundabout was proposed.

    Realistically, at least part of this new route will have to be dual carriageway. Volumes west of Castlemartyr are c. 16k and east of Killeagh are c. 11k. This doesn't reflect the volume of traffic that routes via Mogeely or takes other alternative routes to avoid the N25, which would either return to the N25 post bypass or is worth making an effort to remove it from those local routes.

    The following questions do need answering about this scheme:

    1. Scope of the scheme: Midleton-Youghal/2 short bypasses/Castlemartyr-Killeagh only with no upgrades near Midleton or Youghal.
    2. Will the Lakeview roundabout be addressed as part of the scheme (not addressing it will make westbound traffic heavier at peak periods and cause worse congestion at Lakeview)
    3. What standard of road will be built


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    As a regular user of this road, and a regular waiter at the eastern side of Lakeview, trying to go forward, I’ve had a lot of time to think about this. This is what I’d do...


    First, I think the best solution for Lakeview is to make it a limited-access junction (to Cork/ from Cork only) on an N25 that goes above it, something like this. That would facilitate the vast majority of movements at this point. Very little traffic comes from North and goes East, or from South and goes East.

    I think making the N25 as an overpass here is the least disruptive, and as a bonus, the existing pedestrian bridge is replaced by a ground-level path under the main carriageway, making this way useful to cyclists too. You could add in the missing road movements, but that would interfere with the pedestrian way, and I really don’t think there are enough cars that go that way to justify it.

    East of the junction, the road would taper down to Type 2 DC, then at the eastern side of Midleton itself, a proper full access junction for Midleton, something like this. I’ve take a guess that they’d run a new N25 south of its current alignment here - I think that a short section here would need to be offline to avoid all the housing entrances. (And a parallel access road will be needed too probably as far as the Two-Mile Inn)

    The section between these also has its problems, with housing entrances, but I think somehthing like this could work, and would probably improve active transport access around this part of the Midleton (The existing pedestrian underpass here would stay).




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Very sensible proposal.

    An addition to your proposal may be a LILO at that Rocky Road junction with the existing N25. It might help quell some backlash to any proposals around there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl



    Very good IMO but what about South to East? I think there might be a lot of HGV's so you might need an alternative route. But I agree with where you're going with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I’d be slow to add another junction so soon after the main Midleton one, and a LILO on a 2+2 would only ever help half the journeys: you could get to Cork easily but not back. But in exchange for the loss of that direct in/out, the housing off the Rocky Road would now have far better wheeled access into Midleton, via the overbridge (or probably underpass) shown than it does now, so it’s swings and roundabouts.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement