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N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    I have been away recently and I hadn't realised there has been 2 people killed on this road in the LAST MONTH.

    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Gardai-issue-a-special-appeal-for-motorists-to-take-care-following-six-fatal-road-crashes-in-Cork-in-the-past-month-43148abd-d0aa-4062-b00b-e5d84afc8386-ds

    As if there wasn't enough reason to upgrade.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    “I understand that it is hoped that any relief road project will be under 5km which would constitute a ‘minor improvement scheme’. This would allow the project to be progressed by TII without a need to be included in the National Development Plan. Castlemartyr village suffers severe congestion on a daily basis and a short relief road would greatly reduce current traffic problems”, concluded Minister Stanton.

    Crisps for dinner again lads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    marno21 wrote: »
    Crisps for dinner again lads.

    I know Castlemartyr is a major bottleneck (one of three) between Cork and Youghal, but the idea of a short bypass of Castlemartyr doesn't sit well with me. Either do the job right or don't do it at all. We have these short "relief roads" all over the county and they're mostly short-lived. There's needs to be a proper bypass of Midleton (I'd prefer an underpass), Castlemartyr and Killeagh.

    Short little relief roads tend to also encourage sprawl and detract from the centre of the town.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭ Cork Trucker


    Just seen this article from February 2016, a farce.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/killeagh-bypass-delayed-383664.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    If you want to do it really half-assed you can get the relief road for less than 1.5km of road.

    I'd rather the proper bypass TBH. But its hard to argue with that, you could do it for a few million... unfortunately it would take as long as the main scheme to plan and build.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Latest from Eamon Ryan:

    Within the overall context of Project Ireland 2040, the NDP was developed to underpin the successful implementation of the national planning framework, NPF. This provides the strategic and financial framework for the national roads programme for the period from 2018 to 2027. The focus of TII's activities over the coming years is, accordingly, being directed towards the development of the major national road improvement schemes that are included in the NDP, along with the maintenance of the existing national road network. The proposed N25 Castlemartyr bypass is not included among those projects which have been identified for development during the period of the NDP.

    However, it should be noted that the programme for Government commits to bringing forward the planned review of the NDP from 2022 and to use the review to set out an updated NDP for the period out to 2031. The review of the NDP will be aligned with the NPF and Project Ireland 2040. Work is under way within the Department to contribute to this planned review. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight that all projects, including those listed in the NDP or any revision to the NDP, require statutory approval and compliance with the public spending code.

    While I have stated that this scheme is not within the scope of the NDP, I understand that Cork County Council, which is the road authority for the area, is currently undertaking a feasibility study on the possibility of providing a short to medium-term relief road for the N25 through traffic around the village of Castlemartyr. The study will consider the constraints that will need to be examined in the planning of such a scheme and will consider whether a compulsory purchase order and an environmental impact assessment report are likely to be required.

    Following a recent interim review of the ongoing feasibility study in quarter 1 of 2020, TII awaits the final report before deciding on the next steps. TII expects to have this by September 2020. Consequently, there is currently no definite project at this stage. The outcome of the final feasibility study on the N25 at Castlemartyr is awaited before a decision can be made on the best way to proceed. In any event, I understand from TII that extensive improvement works in Killeagh were recently completed to improve the streetscape and traffic issues in the village.

    The Castlemartyr bypass scheme, if found to be viable and feasible, could remove a significant portion of national through traffic from the village and improve journey times and reliability. It could also lead to environmental benefits with an improvement in the air quality and noise in the village itself. The impact of the likely benefits will be informed by the feasibility study.

    To date, I understand from TII that a small amount of funding has been allocated by TII to Cork County Council to carry out the feasibility study and this work is ongoing and is due to conclude shortly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    marno21 wrote: »
    It could also lead to environmental benefits with an improvement in the air quality and noise in the village itself.


    I don't like Eamon Ryan at all, and am very fearful for the roads program, but it is good news that he (or his speechwriter) is at least open to the idea of a bypass actually PROVIDING environmental benefit rather than "We're Green, no roads".


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    https://twitter.com/jamesoconnortd/status/1303432303524405249

    This fella has been making racket about the N25 since he got elected. He’s clearly in tune with the scale of the issue.

    Fingers crossed it makes the soon to be reviewed National Development Plan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭ Gunner3629


    The traffic and backlogs are worse than ever here lately. I don't know if its the people coming from Cork to Youghal or what but its terrible now every evening. And the mad thing is, there is still so many people working from home. Wait till they start heading back to the City for work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,632 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Had to take my kid to a match in Killeagh a few evenings ago. The traffic at Castlemartyr was absolutely mind blowing. Couldn't believe it. I usually check google maps or whatever but didn't this time. It was tailing back at least to the lake.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭ KrisW1001


    Castlemartyr needs a relief road regardless of any N25 upgrade.

    N25 really is not over-capacity. The problem in Cork is Castlemartyr, and the way it gathers all traffic into a long platoon, so that everyone ends up travelling at the speed of the slowest driver; that makes Killeagh into a problem too, as there’s not enough time for the traffic to separate out into small groups before it hits the lights there.

    Like a lot of people here, I’ve had a lot of time to think about how you could quickly fix the problem. Here’s the cheapest thing I could come up with in terms of a relief road:




  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ BelfastVanMan


    Good idea. Very similar to what they did in the mid 1970s in Tobercurry, and at least it cleared the majority of traffic off the main street at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭ blindsider


    I get the impression that the Dublin media are trying to downplay this, and his chances of success. focussing on his being the youngest TD....suggesting that he's inexperienced etc, and has employed the wrong tactics here....


    This bypass is badly needed, as is the M20 - I hope he sticks to his guns!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/1007/1252420-james-o-connor-fianna-fail/



  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭ BelfastVanMan


    Brilliant news.


    Let's hope it's followed through on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Good news. I'm glad he did it. The government will not want one of their own quitting, and he is probably not long enough in the job to know that throwing a strop like this is bad news for him, and not good optics for the party. So hopefully this'll move something.

    Like maybe a huge junction replacement at Lakeview and HQDC to lets say Youghal and a 2+2 of the Youghal bypass and a big new bridge, all 2+2 at Rincrew. Not too much to ask for at all at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭ KrisW1001


    The catchment of this road here in no way justifies anything over a 2+2, and anywhere east of Castlemartyr that’s pushing things. East of Youghal in County Waterford, there’s no need for anything over what’s there already until you hit Dungarvan. (If you wanted to spend money in this part of County Waterford, improving the quality of N72 and the regional routes that connect it and N25 would be a much better use of funds)

    Castlemartyr is where large amounts of commuter-belt traffic from Garryvoe inwards joins N25. That’s why it’s so congested. East of Castlemartyr there just isn’t anywhere that big. (A lot of Mogeely’s traffic is due to longer-distance commuters from Youghal using it as an de-facto bypass of Castlemartyr, and it’s that behaviour that is the cause of a lot of the problems in Killeagh)

    There’s not much need for 2+2 beyond Castlemartyr - there are precisely two little-used, at-grade junctions on the road between it and Killeagh, and traffic is generally okay here - it either moves freely, or is backed up because of Castlemartyr. If Castlemartyr bypassed with something similar to the Youghal bypass with a relief road to stop Garryvoe traffic needing to come right into the village, there would be nothing needed until the far side of Killeagh except a Type 1 Single carriageway to cut the corner to the South-East of that village.

    This could be done very cost effectively, while still leaving something of use for an eventual 2+2 along the whole length of N25.



  • Registered Users Posts: 184 ✭✭ Gunner3629


    Exactly, and that is pretty much what O’Connor TD is proposing. Castlemaryr and Killeagh relief roads - north of Castlemartyr and south of Killeagh. Both would be cost effective and not require huge capital investment. I agree, no need for 2 x 2 although I would like a short overtaking lane. Similar to the Dungarvan sweep. I dont think we’re asking for too much considering the investment in Macroom, and I cannot understand why it is not on the NDP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭ KrisW1001


    If that’s what he’s really looking for, he should know that it would not be big enough to be specifically listed in the NDP, and would instead be included under the “local relief roads” headings.

    N25 Castlemartyr bypass is not a dead project. TII has been giving Cork County Council around 100k a year for it for a few years - that’s not much (a year of one engineer’s time), but there is something being done on it, at least.

    Here’s what I think the cheapest possible option would look like, but I really wouldn’t like to see that many roundabouts around Castlemartyr.:




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    I can see them doing it really half arsed, and in your pic there, just building the northern part to get the N25 part out of the town. TBH I can't see the southern link being done at all.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    The upper bound for a Type 1 single carriageway (single with hard shoulders and proper junctions) is around 11,600 AADT. Traffic between Midleton and Castlemartyr was around 16k AADT pre-Covid (and it's getting back to those levels, averaging 15.5k per day at the minute). It's also not exclusively commuter traffic, last Tuesday saw 14k, Friday 17.5k and Saturday 15.5k (it being hurling championship weekend may have inflated those figures somewhat).

    Based on those figures there is justification for a 2+2 from Lakeview to at least east of Castlemartyr. These figures don't include traffic going via Mogeely to avoid Castlemartyr which may return to the N25 should a relief road make the N25 more attractive. Traffic drops to 12k or so east of Killeagh.

    The issue I haven't seen enough people mention is how a Castlemartyr bypass will just shift the issue west to Lakeview. Lakeview needs a long term solution and there are so many constraints I can see why tackling the issue is being avoided.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    If I could, I would only quote your last paragraph but the lads fecked up basic functionality of the site.

    I have said similar a number of times, nothing much will be done while the Lakeview RAB remains. No matter how much is spent east of Midleton, the RAB will mean the net benefits are limited. I think the solution is a new junction further east with new link roads running north and south. Add a new P&R station on the train line to green up the project, that could move it up the priorities list pretty swiftly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Lakeview needs just a flyover, perhaps running 2+2 flat and having the current Midleton - Whitegate road as a flyover? and then you can more or less go east along the current alignment as 2+2 and have a junction to the east a little bit, maybe where the current Midleton East turn off is. Link that to the Whitegate road.

    See the thing is, if you bypass Castlemartyr AND sort Lakeview, Killeagh will turn into a bottleneck so you might as well run 2+2 to the far side of Killeagh. Then its only a few kilometers to the Youghal bypass, which they originally planned to retrofit to 2+2 (although a bridge or two may need widening, that bit is cheap).

    But then you have the Youghal bridge, compared to the extravagance of New Ross and the suspension bridge of Waterford, really is behind the times in terms of capacity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    Yes please. Lakeview is probably the biggest issue around. From the "sustainable" perspective it's quite bad, and from a traffic flow perspective it's bad too. I agree that it needs to be further East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭ KrisW1001


    The bottleneck will not just move, because the majority of traffic on that road does not originate in Youghal. I drive this road regularly, but against the Cork commuter flow, and when you do, it’s much easier to see where volumes are being added.

    The vast majority of the traffic volume into Cork is from Castlemartyr westward. Every morning lots of people come up from the housing developments at Ballycotton, Shanagarry and Ladysbridge and join N25 at Castlemartyr, and it’s this flow that tips the current road over capacity. Having to join at a light-controlled junction makes the effects worse, and in the evening, when they go home, having to turn right across the main road makes it slower to clear.

    Killeagh backs up because of people trying to get from the East to Cork using Mogeely as a diversion to avoid Castlemartyr. That requires a right-turn in Killeagh, which dramatically slows things down for anyone trying to just drive through.

    If Castlemartyr is bypassed and the Ballycotton/Shanagarry/Ladysbridge traffic given a smoother merge into and off the N25, the problems further East are manageable. But there will always be slow traffic at morning and evening commuter peaks. We don’t build road capacity to allow the absolute peak volume to sail through at the speed limit.

    There’s also potential to extend the Cork commuter railway as far as Mogeely or even Killeagh. This won’t do anything for places south of Castlemartyr, but it could ease pressure on Mogeely (where the station would be), or Castlemartyr, and with extensive park-and-ride, would make a road/rail commute from Youghal possible. ( Actually, on an aerial photo, you can still see the old rail alignment into Youghal, but reopening this would be very expensive. )

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    I appreciate the effort, and understand your logic but I would go with the East-West 2+2 as a flyover (of flyunder?) if it were technically possible. I realise that it would be more complex, but if you flyover North-South you still need to deal with pedestrians and cyclists. The junction basically cuts the town in two and people don't currently like to walk over the existing pedestrian bridge. They literally prefer to dodge traffic at the East of the Roundabout rather than use it.


    For me, the better solution is to move the junction further East.

    In an absolutely dream world, I'd love to see a "half" cut-and cover of the junction, so that E-W traffic goes through a short tunnel, the N-S traffic is an at-grade street with sustainable transport accommodated by design, no merge lanes in the current location and Bailick Avenue restored as an active transport link (only) between East and West, like the doodle above. This would actually facilitate development of the land South-East of the junction, if that was desirable to the Council (I'm not sure what the long-term plan for that land is).



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Tis a good plan but why must it be in a dream world? Not having a go at you here of course, but just a general thought.

    Limerick - Galway was done, Eamonn Ryan aside there are plans for the N24 either 2+2 or part motorway, stuff like the N13 is being done, the N5 gets sorted but yet any talk of N25 upgrades seems to be either ignored or (even on here) gets the "AADT isn't high enough" treatment. Why? What is so different about the N25 that it must not be upgraded? Why does it need a ministerial strop to get two small cheap relief roads when a 2+2 from Midleton - Youghal is consistently off the radar when other schemes are fawned over? Why was there never even really a plan for Midleton to Youghal? Why did Castlemartyr not get sorted YEARS ago?

    At the end of the day the N25 is a strategic route from Cork to Waterford and onwards to Rosslare port with all the HGVs, caravans and heavy goods traffic that brings. Given the investments elsewhere, there should be a concrete plan to have 2+2 with some GSJs all the way from Midleton to Rosslare. The NRA/TII have often said they don't like route quality changing, but yet the N25 has a bit of everything as it stands and it really seems to be a no-go route to upgrade other than some tinkering. I can see why Carrigtwohill to Midleton is being done, although they went with the cheapest, most half arsed option they could. Waterford - Glenmore is dubious at the moment. Everyone knows I want a Dungarvan bypass but why is Castlemartyr so far behind the times? And then Lakeview?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    Hey I'm with you all the way. I'm one of the people who cycles and drives on it regularly and I'm extremely familiar with the needs for an upgrade.

    But it is not politically sexy.

    East Cork doesn't matter. Cork overall barely matters, and it is very difficult to persuade politicians and planners that we in East Cork need upgraded infrastructure. To compound matters there is a train line directly in parallel with the N25 which has been explicitly marked to stay shut in the medium-term (a plan that I agree with). The issues on the N25 are not statistically significant. Absent a high mortality rate, the N25 will not get significant funding.

    Hilariously enough, I think my "doodle" above could be dressed up as an urban realm and sustainable transport enhancement, if someone had enough willpower. You could easily use it to fund the Midleton East junction. You'd then have a Midleton West (Oatencake) and Midleton East junction. I personally don't think there's need for three Midleton junctions!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I noticed the railway line myself on Google Maps a while ago. I think it's insane that it's sitting idle. It wouldn't be a massive project to upgrade the line from Midleton to Youghal. It already exists and is presumably in state ownership.



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